Author Topic: Getting someone OFF Your six (Read 2068 times)

Latrobe · « **on:** July 30, 2007, 09:04:13 PM »

I have been playing Aces High for over a year now and have learned some good tactics to use in dogfights. Recently I have noticed that i die the most when I'm in a 1on1 and the enemy gets on my tail. I'm fairly good when I have a wingman that can help me out even in a 2on2. Out of all I know I don't really know any good tactics to make them overshoot so I can get on their six. Can someone teach me some good maneuvers to get someone off my six in a 1 on 1?

jazzman1315 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2007, 10:09:03 PM »

I would suggest contacting a trainer, or going over to the training arena and lurking in wait for one to show up. I have learned a great deal from Widewing, Ren, Rolex, Shatzi, etc. They are great people and really know their stuff.
Regards,
Trump

Spatula · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2007, 02:38:56 AM »

Someone on your six is only a problem if their speed is close to yours. If they're slower than you, you will simply out-run them; faster than you, and its easier to force an overshoot. Same speed, and you in for a tougher challenge.

Remember that an overshoot is primarily the result of your attacker's excess speed over you. Or more precisely, its their forward vector velocity - eg a barrel-roll will shorten your progress forward but not slow you down as much as it would you to fly that distance in a straight line. The longest route between two points is one which isn't straight.

Also remember that the faster you fly, the wider your turn circles will be, and the reverse of that is also true up to a point. This law also applies to your attacker. So, if they're faster than you, they shouldn't be able to follow your evasive maneuvers and if they try, they will make a hash of it and you can maneuver to their six - this is the overshoot.

Getting this speed differential is the key. Sometimes its handed to you on a plate - eg P51 comes screaming down at you at 450MPH and your doing a more controllable 300. No worries about getting them overshooting here. Sometimes you have to engineer it a little by using your throttle and use of flaps and or other braking techniques (gear, dive-brakes etc, rudder skid) and hope your opponent has less finesse than you and cant match your deceleration and end up in front of you.

Taking advantage of the overshoot is the next phase. Sometimes you can engineer a snapshot opportunity as they scream passed, other times, you'll end up saddled up on their dumb arnold. Thinking about the picture after the overshoot before it happens will help you get into the best position to take advantage of it.

Bronnco · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2007, 08:19:18 AM »

I am pretty new at flying in AH, but I was watching one of the dogfight specials on the history channel on p47's. In one of the situations on there in a real dogfight that occured in WW2, one of the pilots was being dogged by a 109. He used, what I assume is called a slide (kicking rudder left and right) and it caused the 109 to overshoot. The downside is it will burn whatever energy you may have and you may not have enough energy left to get an shot at the person overshooting. Alot of this I beleive would depend on what type of planes are involved. I have used this technique a couple of times and it has worked...once I was in 51d and the other guy in a Nik, the other I was in a spit and the other guy was in a 109.

SgtPappy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:34:12 AM »

hehe don't try that against an F4U...

Traveler · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2007, 11:52:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bronnco
I am pretty new at flying in AH, but I was watching one of the dogfight specials on the history channel on p47's. In one of the situations on there in a real dogfight that occured in WW2, one of the pilots was being dogged by a 109. He used, what I assume is called a slide (kicking rudder left and right) and it caused the 109 to overshoot. The downside is it will burn whatever energy you may have and you may not have enough energy left to get an shot at the person overshooting. Alot of this I beleive would depend on what type of planes are involved. I have used this technique a couple of times and it has worked...once I was in 51d and the other guy in a Nik, the other I was in a spit and the other guy was in a 109.

There are slips and there are skids, but no slids. Slip and skids

Slips are used for crosswind landings. They are also used when you want to create extra drag, for instance to steepen an approach.
By definition a slip is any condition where the airflow is misaligned left or right relative to the fuselage.
Normally, an intentional slip should always be a proper slip (as opposed to a skid,
A proper slip is performed by lowering one wing with the ailerons, and then applying opposite rudder. We say a proper slip uses “top rudder” because you are pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the raised wing.
If you match the rudder deflection to the bank angle just right, no net turn results. This is called a nonturning slip.

The term skid denotes a particular type of slip that occurs when the airplane is in a bank and the uncoordinated airflow is coming from the side with the raised wing. Typically this happens because you have tried to speed up a turn using “bottom rudder”, that is, pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the lowered wing.
We use the term proper slip to denote a slip that is not a skid.
If you have plenty of airspeed, the aerodynamics of a skid is the same as the aerodynamics of a proper slip. In both cases there is air flowing crosswise over the fuselage. However, you should form the habit of not skidding the airplane, for the following reason.
If the aircraft stalls, any slight crosswise flow will cause one wing to stall before the other. In particular, having the rudder deflected to the right means the aircraft will suddenly roll to the right. If the aircraft is in a 45 degree bank to the right and rolls another 45 degrees in the same direction (because you were applying right rudder pressure), it will reach the knife-edge attitude (wings vertical). If on the other hand you were holding top rudder (still holding right rudder but banking to the left this time), a sudden roll of 45 degrees would leave you with wings level (which is a big improvement over wings vertical).

CAP1 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2007, 04:10:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Traveler
There are slips and there are skids, but no slids. Slip and skids

Slips are used for crosswind landings. They are also used when you want to create extra drag, for instance to steepen an approach.
By definition a slip is any condition where the airflow is misaligned left or right relative to the fuselage.
Normally, an intentional slip should always be a proper slip (as opposed to a skid,
A proper slip is performed by lowering one wing with the ailerons, and then applying opposite rudder. We say a proper slip uses “top rudder” because you are pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the raised wing.
If you match the rudder deflection to the bank angle just right, no net turn results. This is called a nonturning slip.

1) not to be wise.....it's actually called a foward slip:-D

The term skid denotes a particular type of slip that occurs when the airplane is in a bank and the uncoordinated airflow is coming from the side with the raised wing. Typically this happens because you have tried to speed up a turn using “bottom rudder”, that is, pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the lowered wing.
We use the term proper slip to denote a slip that is not a skid.
If you have plenty of airspeed, the aerodynamics of a skid is the same as the aerodynamics of a proper slip. In both cases there is air flowing crosswise over the fuselage. However, you should form the habit of not skidding the airplane, for the following reason.
If the aircraft stalls, any slight crosswise flow will cause one wing to stall before the other. In particular, having the rudder deflected to the right means the aircraft will suddenly roll to the right. If the aircraft is in a 45 degree bank to the right and rolls another 45 degrees in the same direction (because you were applying right rudder pressure), it will reach the knife-edge attitude (wings vertical). If on the other hand you were holding top rudder (still holding right rudder but banking to the left this time), a sudden roll of 45 degrees would leave you with wings level (which is a big improvement over wings vertical).

2)a note on this..if it's modeled in here, the inner wing will usually be the one to stall first as it's moving slower through the air. also....i'm again, not sure...but IF itr's modeled in here, once you stall, usage of ailerons will only drag u farther into the resulting spin......that's how it is in real planes anyway.....u need to use opposite rudder as there's still airflow over it.

now i'm gonna ask another question sorta kinda in this line......in real planes....gonna use a cessna 172....stall clean is i think 57MPH clean.......the higher your bank angle, the higher the stall speed goes.... 60 degrees, the stall on this plane goes up to 81MPH. is this modeled into our cartoon combat aircraft?

<>

john

humble · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:01:47 PM »

Best thing to do is spend some time in the TA with a couple of different trainers. This is a complex topic and will vary based on your plane, the other plane, relative E state, relative strengths, your estimate of the other pilots skill etc...

Here are to totally different clips...both have some "defense" thrown in at the end (somehow I always seem to end up on the deck running:))...

One is an A-20 clip and the other is a "training ride" I did awhile back in a hog for someone....

Hog

A-20

SgtPappy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:38:12 PM »

How bout in a P-38G, co-alt, relatively co-E against a Spitfire 16 parked about 1000 yrds, not closing, not getting any farther?

I've tried it the F4U, usually no prob, though the stall characteristics of the Hog arent as fun as the P-38. Come to think, I still haven't learned that climbing turn. Everytime I try, even vs. a Zeke whos slightly slower I just can't seem to do it.

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2007, 01:55:45 AM »

A well flown spitXVI 1000 behind anything is awful tough to overcome. I dont fly the 38 much (G or otherwise) but I do fly the A-20 pretty well and its at least somewhat similiar in some regards. Its hard to describe (for me at least) exactly how you nudge em out front. I looked but dont have a good a20 vs spit16 clip in that regard. Alot of the key with a spit16 is not getting to the situation described. I rummaged thru some of the unwatched A-20 stuff I built up and found 2 that might help. One is a defense vs a la-7 that shows alot of the same things I use vs a spit 16 and the other is a A-20 fight vs fuze (Ki-84) I eventually lose. The A-20 just doesnt have the visibility or sustained performance to handle the Ki but you can get a sense for the evasives required again....

It's a subtlely out of plane scissor type set of yoyo's. your trying to get the spitty "out of sync" with you and keep him slighty out of plane while you eat that 1000 yds up...a long process...but the "better" more traditional "moves" often just set up a good to great shot solution for the spit...in my mind your focusing on giving marginal shots while counting on the spits E retention to combine with your "out of sync/out of plane" to force the guy out front...

"La-defense"

A-20 vs ki-84

This isnt really applicable here but might help some folks understand "E fighting" a bit. This is a A-20 vs 109K clip. Basically its a Neg E "defense" that transitions to a bit of a co to positive E climbing scissors that forces the 109 to an angles defense. The A20 "zoom" is a bit unique but basically everything works in a hog, 38 or other similiar bird...

A-20 vs 109

DamnedRen · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2007, 03:26:28 AM »

What makes the game so fun is for every flight maneuver there is a counter move. Let's take a look:

Causing an overshoot. You may want to keep an eye on the guy closing behind you. Try and stay "out of plane" with him (make sure your wings don't match his wing position). Try rolling right or left just a lil then pull some and roll back the other way while standing on a your high rudder pedal (High wing-rudder). Continue to stay out of plane and use the rudders almost continuously you will be slowing down fairly rapidly. As he continues to close offset left or right a lil more and stand on the rudders. If he is paying close attention to whats going on he will end up in front of you, off to the side. Now you begin to point your nose (gunsight works well) at his high 6 to maintain position on his 6 without overshotting yourslef.

Preventing an overshoot. It's fairly simple to prevent an over shoot by pulling up BEFORE you overtake the bogie, then immediately roll inverted. At this point you are looking down on the guy and can either push the stick fwd a lil bit to increase the seperation and prevent the overshoot or pull back in now that you matched his speed, with a very small overtake.

Many planes easily can do a 180 degree reversal back into a plane behind them in as little as 600-700 yds. If you spot the guy back there closing at those distances I'd suggest you immediately reverse back into him and go for angles to get on his 6. Alternatively, if you're low you can reverse and force him into a tuck under maneuver. If he tries to tuck with you his speed will take him into an auger. You force him to veer or away from you and you can reset the fight or bug out. Rudders are important at the merge after a reversal. Using a rudder will pretty much make most HO shots a miss.

Typing and reading puts the thought of how it should work into your mind. Actually performing the maneuver reinforces what you've read and lets you experience how its really performed. Drop by the TA and get a work out with on of the Trainers.

I hope this helps.

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2007, 04:28:30 AM »

heya latrobe, dont know if this will help but i like to call it a vertical overshoot. two examples in this quick .ahf film, both of which the enemy are impossible to out run and within lethal range on our tail when the manouvers are attempted.

this works well as a one timer for almost any planes especially cannon equiped. It can also be a very quick way to find out that the enemy is a good pilot and youre going to die anyhow

this example also shows how it is not the plane, but the manouvers and persons in control of any given fight. here a 262 forces a Spit16 to overshoot from 400 yrds and co-speed. the spit should not ever let that happen you say, but its amazing how many times it will work if you let them think youre going to be an easy kill and manouver as they open fire.

Film Link

S! good hunting.

Schutt · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2007, 05:26:13 AM »

Well i dont want to disappoint you but generally when hes on your 6 with similar speed hes in a verry good position. All the overshooting maneuvers put you at danger of being shot down or at least loose your e and sit there like a duck.

So while any maneuver is probably better than to fly straight and get shot down dont put to much expectations in all that fancy stuff described. Most successfull will be an unexpected maneuver that uses the strength of your aircraft in relation to your enemy. So you have to learn at least 5 diffrent moves... and it depends on your plane.

1. vert scissor with a bit of horizontal movement to be unpredictive

2. killing chandle pulling up into vertical and come right back down on him on your second scissor... yonoi style

3. pull him into rolling scissors where you fly better than him

4. hit the break style overshoot with gear/flaps/rudder nail with canon when he passes

5. slow down to below stall speed where you already sink because you cant hold lvl and see him spin out or dash ahead... p38 can 'fly' 30mph while dropping like a rock and continue flying with applying power cpple of 100 feet lower

6. pull him in a climbing spiral

7. dive away, pull out of the dive right above the ground and let him lawndart

of course, as i said, all this wont work if hes a good pilot and concentrated. Dont expect to put out a "wonder move" once hes on your six, you have to do that long before...

humble · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2007, 09:24:20 AM »

I've been on the receiving end of Bats "vertical reversal" (and his straight barrel roll defense) and its very tough to counter.

If you look at the last 3 posts I think you get a very strong commonality of the following...

1) applied knowledge base
2) subtle variation from the "norm"
3) aggressive mental approach

The good sticks are looking to kill you, not just defend. They have a good grasp of overall ACM and can apply it creatively. They are also all very comfortable flying "on the edge" of the flight envelope.

Flatbar · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:28:25 PM »

All these suggestions are great and will help fighting with someone on your 6.

However, in the LWMA's, you'll hardly ever find yourself trying to fend off a SINGLE attacker on your 6 if you are on the deck. Most times you'll more likely to find 3,4 or many more on your 6.

Trying to cause an overshoot when there's half a dozen enemys on your 6 isn't the best maneuver. IMO. Actualy, I don't know what would be the best maneuver other than purposely augering and sending a one finger salute to all involved.

In the LWMA environment I think it's best to maintain a good sense of your SA to keep the above scenario from playing out.