Author Topic: Government funding of the arts: For or against?  (Read 5277 times)

Offline AKIron

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2007, 12:16:05 AM »
So, I can get a grant to fund my nativity scene in front of the courthouse? That's as much about art as anything. Some will just never see the principle involved here. Forced charity is communism and it has been inarguably proven that communism DOES NOT WORK.
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Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2007, 12:39:02 AM »
lolz.  

drama.


:rolleyes:
this thread is doomed.
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Offline Thrawn

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2007, 01:13:40 AM »
Government funding of the arts: For or against?


[Translation]Should art supporters be able to have the government put a gun to  someones head and force them to pay for art they may not want to?[/translation]


For example, in MT's perfect world, his sons would be force to pay, on pain of incarceration, for a white supremacists "art" that say glorifies lynching and denigrates negros.

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2007, 01:26:14 AM »
WOW! UBERDRAMA!!!!
this thread is doomed.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline Red Tail 444

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2007, 08:43:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
So, I can get a grant to fund my nativity scene in front of the courthouse? That's as much about art as anything. Some will just never see the principle involved here. Forced charity is communism and it has been inarguably proven that communism DOES NOT WORK.


If you had a grant to hire a sculptor to create the 3D figures, rent the studio, and purchase art supplies, then yes, you could possibly apply for a grant, somewhere. You would also have money for an opening reception, and a roundtable discussion with the artists,  funding would also likely cover mailing lists, and media outreaches.

No, you would not get funds to purchase plastic flamingo style nativity objects to plant into the courthouse.

Offline Shuckins

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2007, 08:50:21 AM »
There are few in this debate who would argue against government support for national museums such as the Smithsonian, or of reputable foundations supporting legitimate art programs.

However, those that maintain that the potential for abuse is irrelevant are conveniently ignoring the track record of waste and mismanagement of the very government they would entrust with the task of funding private art endeavors around the country.

This is the government whose court system defines pornography as "freedom of expression" and which cannot even come up with a solid definition of what constitutes child-porn.  

Currently any government guidelines for the distribution of monies for the support of the arts are too nebulous to prevent my dime from falling into the hands of "artists" who are little more than porn peddlers.  I realize that the very idea of government regulation of funding for the arts is abhorrent to some here, being seen as a violation of "freedom of expression."  

Yet, it is no more abhorrent than the thought that my money might be going to some greasy scumbag who renders his porn in oil on canvas.

A "no guidelines-no-strings-attached policy" is no policy at all.   That is totally unacceptable.

Offline lazs2

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2007, 08:57:29 AM »
LOL... so it is not charity?   How so?

It is indeed charity and it is money forced from us..  the fact that we have to support other charities is no reason to keep funding the arts...  

The very fact that we spend so little is the best reason to stop...  we can do it easily.   It will be easy.. then we can start working on the harder ones...

baby steps children.

The evil is more than just the extortion of money from people who don't want to pay it..

The evil should be apparent to everyone...  some have hinted at it... even those in favor say...  "with as little interferance as possible".

Now that is funny... real funny...

The ONLY way to make it fair is to take the money and divide it out to anyone who can poop on a canvas.   EVERY SINGLE ONE WITH NO JUDGEMENT.

We know that will not happen tho don't we?   so... use your heads for a second other than to snatch soundbites off the airwaves and think.

Whatever type of government that is in power at the time will shape who and what type of art gets money.

why give money to a crucifix in urine but not a koran?    why is my feces not as much art as someone elses?

Who decides what is art....

No matter what side of this you are on...  if you say government then you are no friend of the arts.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2007, 09:39:01 AM »
If support for the arts is charity, then so is support for the military. Both are in existance for the purpose of improving or at least maintaining our quality of life. If private comanies alone were to decide what is best for the defense of this Country, we would be in a world of hurt.

Art does not have to be commercially successful to be good.

Offline lazs2

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2007, 09:54:52 AM »
soooooo... you have no argument?

The military is not to improve the quality of life.. the military is to protect the way of life...  a very large difference...  big enough that it is one of the few things the founders gave government the right to do.. to raise an army.

Your other worthless point is that art doesn't have to be saleable to be good.  The implication being that the government knows what is really good stuff and needed because we are to stupid to recognize it.

This is hardly worth a comment.. it is like some kind of newspeak jibberish.   You must not even be able to think and write such a thing at the same time.

If government wanted to make sure that all art got a fair shot...

Everyone who could crap on a canvas would get exactly the same amount of money from the government.. the choices would be truly fair.

ANYONE could apply and NO ONE would be denied.   By what standard would you go by to give or deny?   Who should control it?   A christian panel perhaps?    One sect of the art world?   Who decides what is "art"?  and who decides who gets my money?

How is pbs worth my tax money but not fox news?   How is a cross in urine or blood spatters on canvas worth my money?

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2007, 10:06:31 AM »
Support the Maynard G. Krebbs School Of Fine Arts.
Yeah.......right. :rolleyes:
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Offline Tango

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2007, 10:29:06 AM »
What one man sees as art another will see as garbage. Should the one that sees it as garbage have his money [tax] spent to support it? I don't think so.

IF it truly is art the artist will have no problem finding people that will buy it and support him. So I'm against tax money going to individuals.
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Offline Charon

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2007, 11:26:39 AM »
I graduated from a College that had a top fiction writing program. In addition to my advertising, journalism, marketing, technical and PR writing courses I practically took enough fiction writing courses (minus 1-2) to have a formal major in that course of study.

A major problem I see with the public funding of the arts is that it is virtually impossible to provided a non-biased allocation of the funds. The "fine arts" community is as biased as any in academia. The "approved" art is narrowly defined, and the funds allocated accordingly.

Now, for a non arts comparison, small business people can get loans to support their ventures, also with limiters and restrictions on who gets the funding. Some are common sense and objective, from a business plan standpoint for example, and others are artificial and formally biased such as a women or minority status. Still, fairly objective criteria hopefully in tune with a proper business model.

To get back to the arts, the funding criteria is almost all biased and subjective. Who gets the money depends on the art fashion of the day. Don't produce the fashion, don't expect the cash. When I was in school the genre de jour was "the gritty urban tale." Anyone who has suffered through Last Exit to Brooklyn will be familiar with this noir style of urban hopelessness. It was interesting to see, week after week, suburban white kids getting all gritty and urban and racial with their writing assignments -- posers of the highest order with no life experience to back up their material. But that didn't matter as long  as it was gritty and shocking and fit the other style elements.

Now, the fine arts set would be appalled to hear Hubert Shelby's works being called genre fiction (fiction that follows a set style and structure for popular consumption, along the lines of romance novels, sci-fi/science fiction, police procedurals, etc.). The most basic genre fiction being the romance novel "bodice ripper" style where the plot formula is rigid and you practically just insert new characters and a new location with each book. Much like Star Trek the Next Generation or a sitcom like Three's Company or According to Jim.

Of course, tale after tale from Shelby followed exactly the same pattern -- gritty urban transsexual heroin prostitute gets a bunch of character development, a lot of overloaded description of the scene with little plot and a final orgasmic horrible death for the dark main character reflecting the hopelessness of life etc... ad nauseam. And shocking -- must be edgy and shocking! The literary art version of poop in a cat food can.

Now any attempt to write what they defined as "popular/genre fiction" -- basically anything that would be even remotely popular to a mainstream audience or to a science fiction audience, etc. was strongly discouraged. As was actually finishing a work with a beginning, middle, end. An awful lot of scenes that went nowhere, toning a writing style of overloaded description like you find in Flaubert's "classic" Madam Bovary. Another book you only read if you have to for a class or for elitist peer acceptance :)

Here's an example of the MFA writing style, I just pulled out of my ass:

Quote
Clint, looked long and hard down the dark alley. Raindrops, like the sweat off a 54th street hooker's bellybutton ran in spidery rivulets down the dark brooding dumpsters, reeking with the half eaten refuse of the broken dreams of life in the big city. Clint pulled a Marlboro from the pack he always kept in the pocket of his tattered green with grey striped flannel shirt. It was a warm shirt, and he liked warm in the cold dampness of metropolis. He remembered briefly, when his mother bought him that shirt two years past at the Ogden Pickle Festival. Happy times. Mom was off the bottle that year, and dad had yet to come out about his attraction to men... (Jump ahead 2 pages)  

"...I'll be dammed, they look just like snakes -- dark gritty urban snakes," Clint said to himself, of the pair of pantyhose stretched over the widow sill. After three pages of mind numbing gritty description, Clint had forgotten why he was looking down that dammed alley in the first place. Could it have been related to his first foray into male prostitution to support his girlfriend's heroin habit? Perhaps. Maybe. The readers sure the hell had lost track. And yet they would receive no respite from the darkness. They had to analyze elements of the book for class tomorrow. Or they needed a few useful quips to WOW Shiela with at the party over the weekend, because she was a very kinky girl and had a thing for dark, artsy types...


Oddly, none of my MFA student instructors were published outside of scholastic circles, nor were the department heads with the exception of 1-2 low run titles perhaps. They all had a work "in progress" they all were, I'm sure, receiving grant money and school support. The Arts racket, as far as I could tell, existed to support living the carefree artist's life without being encumbered by the need to have a significant audience for the work in question. The main audience for those that published their works were, I firmly believe, fiction writing and literature students given no choice but to buy these assigned texts and a small subset of the hipster crowd.  IMO a closed-cycle art funding sponge that couldn't exist on its own, or that could but as more of a hobby than vocation. And there's nothing wrong with with producing art as a hobby! Better than time spent in front of the tube.

Before the internet you could perhaps argue that publishing houses and record labels limited the ability to get your work to the masses. In the internet age anybody can publish and produce. For sculptors and painters, etc. there have always been galleries and the elitism of that scene is it's own universe. Grant money just allows you more time to tailor your work to "sell" to that crowd.

And what's wrong with art for arts sake? If you like creating art and want to share it with others, then the Internet makes that easier than ever. If you want to earn a living at art then maybe the market should decide. Again, with the Internet an artist has more access to a paying audience than ever before. Even a niche artist can market his or her product to the small subset that appreciates it on an international basis -- multiplying the profit potential.

The best teacher I had in my fiction courses was one of the few black sheep of the program: Phyllis Eisenstein. An actual published author with over nine novels in science fiction and fantasy. The only one (aside from my screen writing instructor, who also earned a real living in the trade) pushing plot and movement and telling a full story from beginning to end. She earned a living with her work. Not a great living, compared to the big name genre guys, but a chance to get a few bucks doing what she enjoyed. No chance for her to get grant money -- wrong type of writing. She just went out and did it the old fashioned way -- she earned it.

Charon
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 12:17:43 PM by Charon »

Offline Maverick

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2007, 11:31:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
which kinda sucks because i really liked the smithsonian...the arts musuem is top notch...paid for by the taxpayer...oh...and the air museum too.  gonna have to go.


Had you brought this up instead of the old but we waste more $ over here argument I could understand your viewpoint a bit better. I honestly did not consider museums at all in this case. I would argue that a historical preservation museum such as the Air Force museum in Dayton or the Patton in Ft. Knox serve a historical value that is different from an artistic venue but the Smithsonian is another issue even if it was started with private money. It's a pity that it is only in one spot and such a crowded one at that.

Speaking from a strictly "art" museum stand point I could see a delineation between displaying works that have already attained public approval status and historical import. Going along with that I could understand and support a secondary purpose of allowing some floorspace (wall space) for the display of other more contemporary art that has not yet been recognised by the general public.

Obviously art is your "sacred cow" and I don't mean that sarcastically. I think you could be a good spokesman for it if you would get off the financial aspect, the wasted $ aspect and simply concentrate on being a spokesman for a beneficial aspect of art to society. Mere sarcasm does not support your cause and in fact makes it look as if you can't do anything more than whine about others opinions. If art is your passion, support it here instead of just throwing out meaningless sarcastic remarks. Perhaps you might just change an opinion or two. It is possible to learn something new here on the bbs.
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Offline midnight Target

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2007, 12:21:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
soooooo... you have no argument?

lazs


Obviously I have none that you seem to understand. That is kinda the point here though isn't it? If art doesn't appeal to lazs or he doesn't understand it.. it ain't worth supporting.

I think we need an NEA that is completely bipartisan and that will dole out support to not only those artists who are universally accepted, but also to the new and imaginative artists who may push the envelope.

Do you think we appoint poet laureates because they are top sellers?


or maybe you should just look here NEA GRANTS before you go off on a rant about crosses in urine... as if they are around every corner like zombies or smething.

Offline AKIron

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2007, 12:51:18 PM »
I always thought starvation and other forms of deprivation were supposed to put an "artist" in touch with his soul. I'd be interested in seeing some examples of great art that was state supported.

Now this girl's art is truly fascinating: http://www.artakiane.com/press.htm
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