Author Topic: We Need Manufacturing Back in America  (Read 1580 times)

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18786
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2007, 03:13:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scherf
Gonna need some Asian management.


and workers who are happy with a bowl of rice for a 12hr day at work

unions chased manufacturing overseas
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline BigGun

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2007, 03:20:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
"I own a piece of the company. If they do, I sell my shares with everyone else and the company goes out of business"

that's very interesting, just who do you sell your shares to?  Also those shares are on the secondary market, the company already has the money from the original sale of the shares. So why would the company go out of business because the share price fell?

are you sure you work for a investment company?


I don't work for an investment company, but for a pension plan & am responsible for investments of approximately $5 billion. Sell shares on the open market, and it doesn't matter who buys them. If the price declines to zero, the company will be bankrupt.

The point is that you cannot buy widgets from a supplier that costs $10 to produce if the market/competitor is doing it at $8 a widget. If you persist at that, you will be out of business. The math in the example is pretty simple really. In easy form: Profit= (Revenue from sale of Widget) minus (production cost of widget)

-2=8-10 (losing $2 per widget sold, not a good return proposition)

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2007, 03:22:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by swoose
I own a piece of the company.  If they do, I sell my shares with everyone else and the company goes out of business.

 Thank you for proving my point about the shareholders not being happy. All you care about is the bottom line and not the amount of people that are put out of work with families to feed ,put clothes on their back and educate them.
 BTW are you a Republican?

 Swoose


Guess what Swoose.  THE POINT OF INVESTING IS TO MAKE MONEY!!!!  This is not a revolutionary idea.  If there is no money to be made, then there wouldn't be any investing.  There wouldn't be any business.  There would not be any society.

You try to guilt me with what happens to the people who lose out on these businesses.  But I really don't care about anyone who will not help themselves.  If you see your boat sinking, you don't ride it til you're under water, and then ask for help!  If you see your boat sinking, you immediately look for life rafts!  I.E. A way to get out!


Eagler makes a great point.  One of the major causes of shipping jobs overseas are the Unions.  The unions were good when they started.  They formed a symbiotic relationship between the owner and the worker.  The owner got better workers, and the workers got better pay.

But recently, the Unions have become detrimental parasites.  They suck the life out of both the workers and the owners for no other reason then self sustainment.  You only need to look at the Auto industry to see how Unions have ruined one of the great American industries.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline indy007

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2007, 03:27:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
But recently, the Unions have become detrimental parasites.  They suck the life out of both the workers and the owners for no other reason then self sustainment.  You only need to look at the Auto industry to see how Unions have ruined one of the great American industries.


Eagler & Laser nailed it. There's a reason that Toyota can come here and setup very profitable factories, and good news from Detroit is exceedingly rare. Not only are their production tolerances higher, their business model is better, and they effectively keep unions out of their factories while still offering very good pay and benefits.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2007, 03:40:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigGun
I Sell shares on the open market, and it doesn't matter who buys them. If the price declines to zero, the company will be bankrupt.


i don't think you understand, the company got their money when they sold the stock on the IPO, (initial purchase offer). you are dealing in secondary stock sales, if the stock price falls it will only affect the people that own the stock and the CEO who will have to resign and take his $200 million golden parachute.

the only way a company goes bankrupt is when they have no profits and cannot pay their bills, and the stockholders do not "own" the company, they own stock in the company, if the company goes bankrupt the creditors own the company.*

* see K-Mart.

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27317
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2007, 03:45:30 PM »
We are still GIVING money to the Katrina Bums. Government subsidize the lazy, the ignorant, the non-American..... the Government constantly supports the useless and the useless just have more kids (why not we have to support them too) that learn to live off others.

We should just let Nature take her course. Thin out the herd.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline BigGun

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2007, 03:56:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
i don't think you understand, the company got their money when they sold the stock on the IPO, (initial purchase offer). you are dealing in secondary stock sales, if the stock price falls it will only affect the people that own the stock and the CEO who will have to resign and take his $200 million golden parachute.

the only way a company goes bankrupt is when they have no profits and cannot pay their bills, and the stockholders do not "own" the company, they own stock in the company, if the company goes bankrupt the creditors own the company.*

* see K-Mart.


I see you like to play with semantics. Stockholders (equity) own an interest in all the net value of a company (assets minus liabilities).

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2007, 06:04:21 PM »
Instinctively, a drop in manufacturing may be alarming.  Here's my perspective and analogy of the situation:

Think of the US as a town within a country.  Historically this town has been a coal mining town.  The belief among the coal mining families in this town is that working the mines is what counts and if you aren't working the mines, you aren't really working.  Now imagine that the newest generation has children who want to do other things; some of them become doctors, inventors, chefs, authors and even computer game developers.  As the number of miners diminish, the coal mining families begin to worry, after all; working the mines is what counts and if you aren't working the mines, you aren't really working.  But the doctors, inventors, chefs, authors and computer game developers earn better salaries than typical miners.  Even though the mine output isn't what it used to be, the town's economy is really just fine.  The mining families have trouble understanding that books, games and ideas can truly replace rail cars of coal.  They do appreciate having better health care and fine dining, however.  Neighboring towns may now be producing the coal and may be doing better than they have in the past; but that's no indication that the progressive town isn't better off.

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2007, 07:10:25 PM »
I understand Hap's longing to return to his roots and good old days... (I'm kidding Hap ;) ) Hap spent his life in steel manufacturing and he and I discussed manufacturing more than a few times here in the past, particularly about the decline of heavy manufacturing in the US.

Not only does Buchanan persist in spreading myths, so do others here.

1. Manufacturing is not dead in America. Manufacturing contribution to real (inflation adjusted) GDP has been relatively stable for the last 30 years at 16-18%.

2. Domestic factors played a large role in the decline of manufacturing employment. Increased productivity and automation eliminated many jobs, not simply shifting them overseas.

3. Direct investment in the US by foreign companies has contributed to keeping more Americans employed in US manufacturing. For example, Japanese companies employ more people outside Japan than inside Japan. And contrary to the myth, profits are not repatriated to Japan. They count as consolidated earnings, but the foreign units, such as in the US, operate as separate P&L centers. The profits are retained earnings (something US companies have almost completely discarded in favor of executive consumption of profits) and reinvested into equipment, R&D or facilities for growth, eliminating the costs of credit for investment.

4. I say the following with no malice toward BigGun. I believe you are sincere in your fiduciary duty to your clients, but there is, in my opinion, a fundamental flaw in the American philosophy of competition. Instead of seriously competing in the global market with a unified goal, the US is eating itself by pitting Americans against Americans under the guise of competition. Only in America would a pension fund be willing to destroy the pensions of other citizens, and tell them they were doing it for their own good because they were inefficient.

A sense of class warfare has evolved. The investor and executive classes are willing to sacrifice their employees' long-term future for a quick buck. What about the fiduciary duty to invest in and make the best decisions for a company for growth and not simply gamble on the stock price, abandoning the company when investment is most needed?

5. People who "play" economics using the freshman course model of a market economy as their only source of answers and opinions are still just playing. There is no true free-market model in reality, so those opinions are better left in the freshman classroom. They are irrelevant to the real world. There will never be enough real service industry jobs to outgrow the decline in other jobs.

If you back out the health care and fear-of-terror industries, there has been no growth in US employment in the last 6 years. None. All the gains have been in those two industries alone and investing in those industries is a path to nowhere. Average real income has declined in the past six years also. If you look at the history of the economics of war, you see that the diversion of investment from long-term growth industries and jobs begins to take a toll after four years. We're there now and the burden is being piled onto the coming burden of the baby boomer retirement. Which leads to this...

6. The persistence of the current health care model for the US is strangling the life out of the nations competitive potential.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 07:12:55 PM by Rolex »

Offline Samiam

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2007, 08:41:31 PM »
Counterpoint.

Quote
The year 2006 was a record year for output, revenues, profits, profit rates, and return on investment in the manufacturing sector. And despite all the stories about the erosion of U.S. manufacturing primacy, the United States remains the world’s most prolific manufacturer—producing two and a half times more output than those vaunted Chinese factories in 2006.

Offline Excel1

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 614
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2007, 01:25:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
you guys need to start driving on the right side of the road.

lazs


we have to drive on the left cause we're socialist, and besides if we switched to the right the japanese would have no where to export their knackered used right hand drive cars too anymore.

Offline Excel1

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 614
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2007, 02:20:33 AM »
QUOTE]Originally posted by Eagler
and workers who are happy with a bowl of rice for a 12hr day at work

unions chased manufacturing overseas
[/QUOTE]

tame the unions as they have been here in nz and you might find that it doesnt solve the problems of competing with payed with peanuts sweat shop labour. the answer i think is to minimize the damage to the manufacturing sector by making it a lot easier for domestic manufacturers to compete and at the same time giving them incentive not to relocate to asia - by reducing their costs, by cutting red tape and compliance costs, tax brakes etc
for it to work it needs a government with business acumen and an aggressive determination to put the interests of it's country above self interest. unfortunately we dont have a such a government, the tax and spend mob running the show here in nz couldnt organize an orgy in a brothel and are more than happy to let the country bleed in the pursuit of their own bent ideological agenda.
   

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2007, 07:36:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Excel1
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
and workers who are happy with a bowl of rice for a 12hr day at work

unions chased manufacturing overseas


tame the unions as they have been here in nz and you might find that it doesnt solve the problems of competing with payed with peanuts sweat shop labour. the answer i think is to minimize the damage to the manufacturing sector by making it a lot easier for domestic manufacturers to compete and at the same time giving them incentive not to relocate to asia - by reducing their costs, by cutting red tape and compliance costs, tax brakes etc
for it to work it needs a government with business acumen and an aggressive determination to put the interests of it's country above self interest. unfortunately we dont have a such a government, the tax and spend mob running the show here in nz couldnt organize an orgy in a brothel and are more than happy to let the country bleed in the pursuit of their own bent ideological agenda.
   
(Image removed from quote.) [/B]


Almost everyone who argues that manufacturers leaving isn't bad, are going to agree with you that tax cuts are a good idea, no matter what the time.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Hap

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3908
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2007, 09:15:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I understand Hap's longing to return to his roots and good old days... (I'm kidding Hap ;) ) Hap spent his life in steel manufacturing and he and I discussed manufacturing more than a few times here in the past, particularly about the decline of heavy manufacturing in the US.


Sales, service, education, sales, and service in that order over 30 years.

If I did say I spent my time in steel, I was lying, or mistyped something awfully.

And, I do long to return to America's roots and good old days of a well employed and well paid blue collar class.

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
We Need Manufacturing Back in America
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2007, 09:53:40 AM »
My mistake, Hap. It must have been Habu.