Author Topic: Katrina 2nd Anniversary (Read 2248 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #60 on:** August 30, 2007, 02:19:59 PM »

this is getting better and better....

The hurricane was just a coincidence.. the fact that the levees were only built to withstand a cat 2 or three and... they did in the past... that is nothing... the fact that katrina was a cat 5 had nothing to do with the failure?

the fact that the people had the mayor and insurance commisioner they had had nothing to do with the disaster?

The fact that the people who lived there refused to get adequate insurance had nothing to do with it?

Now I am told that the vast majority of the people of NO are great, law abiding and responsible citizens....

Yet... I see vids of the police looting a walmart.... if the police are like that then I can only imagine that all the other vids of the feral creatures I seen must be true and representitive.

I would say that the only hand wringing about the whole katrina thing is from the media and that the average Americian pretty much feels as I do that it was a disaster that is not our problem and we are really sick of hearing about it.

I would love the feds to simply say "thats it... we are taking out the levees.'

lazs

Masherbrum · « **Reply #61 on:** August 30, 2007, 02:27:59 PM »

Blaming the Govt. for the "inferior levees" in NO, is like San Francisco residents of today, BLAMING the reconstruction after the 1906. Building codes were instituted to make downtown San. Fran. "fire proof and earthquake resistant", by using "non-combustible materials". Three months after it was instituted, they were abolished. Guess what? When the next one comes, those very buildings will be demolished wholesale by the quake.

It's EASY to blame the past. It is all too convenient to disperse common sense and reality to something else. You chose to live BELOW SEA LEVEL, be prepared to deal with the consequences.

2bighorn · « **Reply #62 on:** August 30, 2007, 02:52:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
The US Army Corps said that "they were designed with a maximum rating of Cat 3 on the Saffir-Simpson Scale. There were some weak points, but none catastrophic."

20 breach points were investigated, 12 main and 8 sub location. Only at Plaquemanes Parish, storm surge and height of waves exceeded design levels.
8 points of breach were of 'catastrophic' severity.
Only 16 percent of pumps were operating after the breach. All others were out for various reasons.

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again, the damage, COULD OF been A LOT worse than it was. But yeah, those levee's sucked. Be thankful. Wait, it's not good enough.

It could also be a lot less, since only at one point there would be leakage due to a storm surge.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
The hurricane was just a coincidence.. the fact that the levees were only built to withstand a cat 2 or three and... they did in the past... that is nothing... the fact that katrina was a cat 5 had nothing to do with the failure?

The fact that levee system was designed to withstand cat 3, which Katrina was at land fall.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
the fact that the people had the mayor and insurance commisioner they had had nothing to do with the disaster?

They are partially responsible

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
The fact that the people who lived there refused to get adequate insurance had nothing to do with it?

Not everybody got full coverage, not everybody could afford, rebuilding costs are higher than what they got from insurance. Lots of people were renting, living in apartments, majority of those weren't rebuild yet.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Now I am told that the vast majority of the people of NO are great, law abiding and responsible citizens....

LOL, of course, pretty much same as in Dixon. Both places have some bad apples, don't they?

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Yet... I see vids of the police looting a walmart.... if the police are like that then I can only imagine that all the other vids of the feral creatures I seen must be true and representitive.

That's only one side of the story and definitely not representative of the majority.
Most of the times you complain about media accuracy, out of context reporting, etc, yet when it comes to Katrina, you suddenly stand 100% behind that very same media?

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I would say that the only hand wringing about the whole katrina thing is from the media and that the average Americian pretty much feels as I do that it was a disaster that is not our problem and we are really sick of hearing about it.

Then turn away and stop posting ill comments about it. You are free to skip threads like this one.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #63 on:** August 30, 2007, 03:49:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2bighorn
The fact that levee system was designed to withstand cat 3, which Katrina was at land fall.

Then turn away and stop posting ill comments about it. You are free to skip threads like this one.

Why lie to "cook your argument"? It was a Category 3-4 (depending on the source) Hurricane, with a Category 5 strength Storm Surge.

You seem to be NOT GETTING the point. The system WAS out of date, the pumps are USELESS. Those pumps are 20 years older than the 1933 levees. Why do you keep bringing up "out of date things." EVERY resident of NO knew the system was "out of date". Hell, the drainage system was designed in 1896. The city even exceeded it's capacity long into the 1800's.

NO was hit by a Cat 5 Storm Surge. You CANNOT, WILL NOT, have a system that can move that amount of water. Are you understanding this? Just because the Hurricane was a Cat 3-4 DOES NOTHING, to the FACT that it was a Cat 5 Storm surge. Do you understand this? I think you do not understand this FACT.

Again, Mississippi was hit a helluva lot worse and has been ignored by the media. Stop blaming the Govt. for "residential complacency". As for the Govt. being blamed, BS, that Mayor and Gov. should have been shot, drawn and quartered. But instead, they blamed Boosh.

SkyRock · « **Reply #64 on:** August 30, 2007, 03:54:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2bighorn
20 breach points were investigated, 12 main and 8 sub location. Only at Plaquemanes Parish, storm surge and height of waves exceeded design levels.
8 points of breach were of 'catastrophic' severity.
Only 16 percent of pumps were operating after the breach. All others were out for various reasons.

It could also be a lot less, since only at one point there would be leakage due to a storm surge.

The fact that levee system was designed to withstand cat 3, which Katrina was at land fall.

They are partially responsible

Not everybody got full coverage, not everybody could afford, rebuilding costs are higher than what they got from insurance. Lots of people were renting, living in apartments, majority of those weren't rebuild yet.

LOL, of course, pretty much same as in Dixon. Both places have some bad apples, don't they?

That's only one side of the story and definitely not representative of the majority.
Most of the times you complain about media accuracy, out of context reporting, etc, yet when it comes to Katrina, you suddenly stand 100% behind that very same media?

Then turn away and stop posting ill comments about it. You are free to skip threads like this one.

pretty much sums it up. About the insurance, when children started buying homes from their parents, many insurance companies would not renew policies, so many lost houses that have been in the family for years and years. Very sad. We all know about the bad apples, but I work in this type of neighborhood daily, and know that the percentage of bad apples is always dwarfed by the percentage of great americans!

2bighorn · « **Reply #65 on:** August 30, 2007, 04:16:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Why lie to "cook your argument"?

Relax there grasshopper. Why don't you inform yourself before calling me a liar?

Quote

Funded by National Science Foundation, an eight-month study of the New Orleans levee system and its performance during Hurricane Katrina, a 30-person team of researchers released a draft of their findings

...This report presents the results of an investigation of the performance of the New Orleans regional flood protection system during and after Hurricane Katrina, which struck the New Orleans region on August 29, 2005. This event resulted in the single most costly catastrophic failure of an engineered system in history.

Current damage estimates at the time of this writing are on the order of $100 to $200 billion in the greater New Orleans area, and the official death count in New Orleans and southern Louisiana at the time of this writing stands at 1,293, with an additional 306 deaths in nearby southern Mississippi. An additional approximately 300 people are currently still listed as “missing”, and the death toll is expected to continue to rise a bit further. More than 450,000 people were initially displaced by this catastrophe, and at the time of this writing more than 200,000 residents of the greater New Orleans metropolitan area continue to be displaced from their homes by the floodwater damages from this storm event.

This investigation has targeted three main questions as follow: (1) What happened?, (2) Why?, and (3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future? In the end, it is concluded that many things went wrong with the New Orleans flood protection system during Hurricane Katrina, and that the resulting catastrophe had it roots in three main causes:
(1) a major natural disaster (the Hurricane itself),
(2) the poor performance of the flood protection system, due to localized engineering failures, questionable judgments, errors, etc. involved in the detailed design, construction, operation and maintenance of the system, and
(3) more global “organizational” and institutional problems associated with the governmental and local organizations responsible for the design, construction, operation, maintenance and funding of the overall flood protection system.

Study in full : http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~new_orleans/report/VOL_1.pdf

SkyRock · « **Reply #66 on:** August 30, 2007, 05:54:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
But instead, they blamed Boosh.

Bro, you seem to be laying all the blame on the victims and the local and state and act like feds should have no blame. I believe that the Mayor and Govenor acted basically criminal in their reaction and behavior towards the impending storm as well as did the agencies on the federal level.

It needed to be fixed 30 years ago, but to say that Bush and the federal govt was blameless is just not looking at what actually happened. Maybe you should study the timeline and find out what the agencies were doing while grandmothers and old folks home residents were drowning!

Masherbrum · « **Reply #67 on:** August 30, 2007, 06:01:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2bighorn Study

Studies have an agenda, I don't. I've stated facts.

bj229r · « **Reply #68 on:** August 30, 2007, 06:53:59 PM »

Federal govt has spent a half TRILLION dollars in N.O. since the flood, and the levees that broke are now capable of withstanding a....class 3 hurricane...
(but the water can reach 6 inches higher:aok )---and the levees that DIDNT break are just as bad off as before...will take decades to put them all at 5's

Masherbrum · « **Reply #69 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:12:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SkyRock
Bro, you seem to be laying all the blame on the victims and the local and state and act like feds should have no blame. I believe that the Mayor and Govenor acted basically criminal in their reaction and behavior towards the impending storm as well as did the agencies on the federal level.

It needed to be fixed 30 years ago, but to say that Bush and the federal govt was blameless is just not looking at what actually happened. Maybe you should study the timeline and find out what the agencies were doing while grandmothers and old folks home residents were drowning!

As I've stated Mark, regardless of the amount of money spent, no levee created may withstand a Category 5 Storm Surge. It is impossible to move that much water. "Rebuilding NO" is feeble.

I've stated facts, and 2bighorn wishes to pick and choose. I'm through. If he he wants to blame other's, he can. I think it's funny that "complacency" is his answer.

2bighorn · « **Reply #70 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:31:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Studies have an agenda, I don't.

They better have it, otherwise they'd be pretty useless.

Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?
(2) Why?
(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future?

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I've stated facts.

Facts? Where did you pull those from? Any reference perhaps?

Maybe you could cross check your storm surge facts here:
http://www.katrina.noaa.gov/reports/reports.html

The point is, it happened before. After Andrew hit Florida, dozen or so insurance companies went belly up. No money was paid out.
Thousands and thousands fully insured families were homeless with no funds to rebuild.
Government response there was late. There was looting. Some are still in FEMA supplied housing on tax payer expense (15 years later), yet nobody is claiming Florida people are all lazy crooks. What's so different about NO people?

Tell me, from all who are at fault, especially federal, state and local governments, you're slamming on NO people? And for what reason?

SkyRock · « **Reply #71 on:** August 30, 2007, 10:13:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2bighorn
They better have it, otherwise they'd be pretty useless.

Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?
(2) Why?
(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future?

Facts? Where did you pull those from? Any reference perhaps?

Maybe you could cross check your storm surge facts here:
http://www.katrina.noaa.gov/reports/reports.html

The point is, it happened before. After Andrew hit Florida, dozen or so insurance companies went belly up. No money was paid out.
Thousands and thousands fully insured families were homeless with no funds to rebuild.
Government response there was late. There was looting. Some are still in FEMA supplied housing on tax payer expense (15 years later), yet nobody is claiming Florida people are all lazy crooks. What's so different about NO people?

Tell me, from all who are at fault, especially federal, state and local governments, you're slamming on NO people? And for what reason?

word!

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #72 on:** August 31, 2007, 01:43:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Studies have an agenda, I don't. I've stated facts.

Is not your agenda to state facts?

If so, you do have an agenda.

If you do have an agenda, then the statement, "Studies have an agenda, I don't. I've stated facts." would then be false, as you state that you do not have an agenda, when you do.

The second half of that quote is then at best misleading, when you state that you state facts, when you state falsehoods as well.

But then by stating falsehoods, you are going against your own agenda, thereby contradicting your own dictum.

And we all know that a contradicting dictum could be confusing.

john9001 · « **Reply #73 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:00:55 AM »

Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?....high water

(2) Why?.......hurricane

(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future? ............move to higher ground.

who do i bill for my "study"?

Masherbrum · « **Reply #74 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:28:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by john9001
Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?....high water

(2) Why?.......hurricane

(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future? ............move to higher ground.

who do i bill for my "study"?

Agree. Bighorn would rather spew the same drivel.

I'm through with him. Keep blaming everyone else 2bighorn. It's easier that way.