The Dixie Chicks should be President

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by LEADPIG
Haven't you people figured out this STARTED as a serious topic but i've seen that's impossible here so now i'm screwing around......

One more thing. If you started this as a serious thread, you're even worse off than anyone imagined. The title, and the premise, could not possibly be taken seriously by anyone with any sort of common sense or intelligence.

[WMLute]

300
That's how many U.S. soldiers died per day in WW2

3
That's how many U.S. soldiers die per day in Iraq

291,557
American Casualties in WW2

3,790
As of Aug. of 2007 American Casualties in Iraq. (4 years)


(perspective)
6600 U.S. soldiers were killed on D Day.
6,825 U.S. soldiers were killed in the Battle of Iwo Jima

(more perspective)
3,650
How many soldiers died during the Battle of Antietam (in 12 hours, and that does not include wounded, or MIA.  that's just dead)

1,088,907
How many soldiers died in the Battle of the Somme


Actually, I would say the War in Iraq has gone remarkably well.  Amazingly so in fact.  

Who said it would be easy?  (but so far it really has been)
Who said it would be over quickly?  
HOW long were we in Japan after we won the war?  
How long in Germany?

Just how long does it take to stabilize a region after one invades and captures it?  Give me a figure here.  Months?  Years?  Decades?  

I am not sure what your expectations are/were in re: the war in Iraq, but I for one would like to see it through to the end.  To do anything other than that would dishonor the memories of 3,790 soldiers that have lost their lives.

What purpose would walking away from Iraq now serve?  What good could possibly come out of such an action.

Soldier die.  
That's their job.  
It sucks, but so does war.  

You want a "cause"?  Here's one for ya'.

In China a total of 2,845 mining accidents were reported in 2006, resulting in 4,746 deaths, or an average of 13 deaths per day.

That is @ 1,000 MORE deaths in mining accidents in one year in China vs. how many  U.S. soldiers have died in the Iraqi in four years.  It's also over four times higher deaths per. day than the Iraq war.  

Ponder that.  

You are over FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY to die if you are a Chinese miner vs. being a U.S. soldier in Iraq.

There.

Now go freak out on some Chinese BBS about mining safety.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by WMLute



Actually, I would say the War in Iraq has gone remarkably well.  Amazingly so in fact.  

Who said it would be easy?  (but so far it really has been)
Who said it would be over quickly?  
HOW long were we in Japan after we won the war?  
How long in Germany?

Just how long does it take to stabilize a region after one invades and captures it?  Give me a figure here.  Months?  Years?  Decades?  

I am not sure what your expectations are/were in re: the war in Iraq, but I for one would like to see it through to the end.  To do anything other than that would dishonor the memories of 3,790 soldiers that have lost their lives.

What purpose would walking away from Iraq now serve?  What good could possibly come out of such an action.

 

Lute, I for one, was against the IRAQ invasion from day one.  I avoided voicing my opinion as I could see it was futile.  Living in a southern state and in the profession I am in, meant that I was bombarded daily by warhawks(southern republicans) about how they attacked us and they should get what they deserve.  It was an overwhelming consensus that we should attack them because they attacked us(even though we all know it wasn't an IRAQ plan that was carried out on 9/11).  I fully supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban, and wished that we would have brought the mastermind, Osama, to justice.  Only once was I asked(at the time I was coaching basketball) by my fellow coaches what I thought about it.  When I told them I thought it was a stupid move and would end in complete disaster, I felt the anger brewing in them as they called me names and questioned my patriotism.  This is how the Pro-war people handle opposition politically, they challenge the opponent's patriotism.  

There is not much hope for a solution in IRAQ and the outlook for longterm stability there grows more dim every day.  The surge is giving hope, but it is overshadowed by the eminent involvment by IRAQ's neihbors and Shia brethren.  The premise for the invasion was flawed and our greatest and bravest are and will continue to pay the price for this ignorant move.  I have only the greatest of respect for the majority of our soldiers over there and try and avoid disrespecting their service.  Our brave soldiers are the defenders of our freedoms and should be honored for their service.   I also believe in the rights of the people to voice opposition to the policies of their government without being persecuted.

  It is my belief that the policy that led to the invasion,  was one of the most flawed and ignorant policies that this country has ever beset upon it's soldiers.  You would think that the people pushing this policy would have been more adept at assessing the possible outcomes of the invasion, given the history of occupations in the 20th century and the history of the middle east, yet somehow, the logic was lost.  

by the way Lute!  

Mark



PS Paul in '08:aok

[texasmom]

Originally posted by Tango
Dixie Chicks cut thier own throats by letting the fat one run her mouth off in a foreign country. I think that does show stupidity.

LOL:aok

[Tango]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Lute, I for one, was against the IRAQ invasion from day one.  I avoided voicing my opinion as I could see it was futile.  Living in a southern state and in the profession I am in, meant that I was bombarded daily by warhawks(southern republicans) about how they attacked us and they should get what they deserve.  It was an overwhelming consensus that we should attack them because they attacked us(even though we all know it wasn't an IRAQ plan that was carried out on 9/11).  I fully supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban, and wished that we would have brought the mastermind, Osama, to justice.  Only once was I asked(at the time I was coaching basketball) by my fellow coaches what I thought about it.  When I told them I thought it was a stupid move and would end in complete disaster, I felt the anger brewing in them as they called me names and questioned my patriotism.  This is how the Pro-war people handle opposition politically, they challenge the opponent's patriotism.  

There is not much hope for a solution in IRAQ and the outlook for longterm stability there grows more dim every day.  The surge is giving hope, but it is overshadowed by the eminent involvment by IRAQ's neihbors and Shia brethren.  The premise for the invasion was flawed and our greatest and bravest are and will continue to pay the price for this ignorant move.  I have only the greatest of respect for the majority of our soldiers over there and try and avoid disrespecting their service.  Our brave soldiers are the defenders of our freedoms and should be honored for their service.   I also believe in the rights of the people to voice opposition to the policies of their government without being persecuted.

  It is my belief that the policy that led to the invasion,  was one of the most flawed and ignorant policies that this country has ever beset upon it's soldiers.  You would think that the people pushing this policy would have been more adept at assessing the possible outcomes of the invasion, given the history of occupations in the 20th century and the history of the middle east, yet somehow, the logic was lost.  

by the way Lute!  

Mark





PS Paul in '08:aok

So your saying we don't have the right to go to war when our soldiers are fired upon? The Iraqis were doing just that the whole time Clinton was in office and nothing was done. Even without the WMDs it was the right thing to do.

[LEADPIG]

Skyrock i too was against the war from day one. Whoever that was nice facts and figures about soldiers lives but they're worth more than facts and figures to me so i really don't care. It never ceases to amaze me how idiotic the population is in realizing the facts that American soldiers are dieing in a worthless situation. They should be dieing in a worthwhile situation if they have too. There lives are worth that. War must have a purpose and a chance to win to be worth sending people to die in it. You people don't seem to get this fact. Soldiers are getting killed everyday by people, who they don't even know who did it and they can't even identify the enemy after it's over. That's a pretty screwed up situation. Maybe they can after an attack is over. If you can't tell who in the hell the enemy is how in the hell are you gonna win. You probably won't. If you don't get that fact sorry.

     As for all you people who don't agree with the argument i sure seem to have gotten alot of hits, alot of insults after that, at least you could disagree intelligently, i replied rudely when people replied rudely to me, particularly that comment about my head up my bellybutton by Captain Virgil Hilts, when i said nothing to him of the sort before that, read the text buffer, you'll see i didn't. If you don't agree with my comments cool thats fine with me but respond nicely if your a gentleman. You may not believe this but i hold NO hard will towards any of your comments, i think it' good and a worthwhile part of the democratic process. Being a black man i can and have sat down with Klan Members and listened to their topic intelligently and made friends in the process, one of them hugged me a number of years later a a grocery store after i saw him later. Why can't you do the same.

     I've had alot of words thrown in my mouth, that i was democrat, liberal, cut an run, and alot of insults as well referenced by the first response From Steve Bailey, i quote "Please don't delete your post. I can use this as proof to people who doubt me when I say there are plenty of functioning retards among us."  Thank you Steve Bailey i really appreciate that. (sarcastic look).

       After that Captain Virgil Hilts said this, "Further proof that it is nearly impossible to under estimate the intelligence of the general public. Especially those who embrace the "common sense" and "brilliance" of "celebrities" who pontificate on things which they know nothing about. The last part of that comment i have no problem with.

       Talon X threw these words in my mouth. "You only believe celebs are ahead because you are a liberal. If you depend on actors for political science, I pity a future decided with your vote.". Not what I was saying.

        Shaky threw up a picture of Shawn Penn as if i was saying that. John9001 shoved this in my throat "leadpig says the USA should surrender, the terrorists like leadpig, leadpig is why the terrorists keep on fighting." To which i replied with the trailer home reply. To which Captain Virgil Hilts said this "Yout bait sucks as bad as your argument."

       One guy said i was some guy called Beet1e or something to which i gave a smart bellybutton answer in response.  

         Of coures can't forget Captain Virgil Hilts intelligent answer "Saddam did what? "Please America don't kill us"???

Have you completely lost your mind? ALL Saddam had to do was allow the UN COMPLETE unrestricted access, and stop shooting at Allied aircraft enforcing the no fly zone. Well, along with not paying the families of homicide bombers $25K.

You have posted some of the most delusional crap I've seen here in years. I cannot believe anyone would be so stupid as to try to pass off Saddam as being compliant and wanting to avoid an invasion. Did you sleep through the near two year build up to the invasion, or did you have your head up your bellybutton the entire time?

Your grasp of the bombing restrictions during Vietnam is non existent as well. The vast majority of the targets that were off limits were properties of countries like Russia and China. It had nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with not escalating a local conflict to a world war.

      I Salute Tango for his responses we actually had a group of conversations in which he made a point and i answered it, with really no insults between us as i can remember, there were others i Salute you as well.

      For the people who think i REALLY think the Dixie Chicks should be President, you don't understand sarcasm very well.  

       As for the people who said i was a cut and run Liberal, for the record i am not a liberal, i am not "Cut and run". I guess you missed this part where i said about Senator McCain "Aside: I don't support Hillary Clinton or hardly any of the others i think i saw a reference that i might, i also saw a reference that i might be liberal, you don't actually know that, i have not said it. My best bet is McCain at least he doesn't believe in complete pullout just yet it must be stabilized as much as possible first, but he is looking to bringing the troops home not too far in the future."  I guess if i'm cut an run i'd be supporting Senator McCain huh.......

As for the others if that's all you got to say i have nothing for you.

SKUZZY stick a fork in it she's done.....

[Gunthr]

It is my belief that the policy that led to the invasion, was one of the most flawed and ignorant policies that this country has ever beset upon it's soldiers. You would think that the people pushing this policy would have been more adept at assessing the possible outcomes of the invasion, given the history of occupations in the 20th century and the history of the middle east, yet somehow, the logic was lost. - Leadpig

Hi LP,

You don't think it is tactically good to be securing Iraq right now?  Or to have a presence in the Middle East right now, when IRAN is getting closer to WMD and making noise about Israel, our ally,  "disappearing?"

Do you think we should withdraw?  Do you want a deadline?

[Tango]

Pig, lets do a what if scenario.

Lets say Iran attacks us and we wipe out thier military. Do we simply stay out of Iran or do we go in and rebuild everything? If we do go in, we end up fighting the  same type of fights that are going on in Iraq at this time.

As for caring about what the troops are going through, maybe you should ask them when you see them. You'll find an ALOT of them are for staying and finishing the job. Sure, many will tell you they don't/didn't want to get sent over there, but niether does a Police officer ever want to have to pull his gun on a bank robber, but he knows its his job.

[LEADPIG]

Hey Gunthr

Thank you for asking.

Yes i think it is tactically good to be securing Iraq right now, i think our current administration did not know what they were getting into or that it would turn into a bunch of anonymous terrorists running amok popping our soldiers while they duck, and then try to fight back. So yes now that it's started i think it should be finished, however i don't think we will be able to totally repair it right now due to all the social, religious and other, complexities that Americans frankly don't understand, and frankly we have no business trying to fix for them. Then you have the fact that alot of people hate us over there and our very involvement in fixing their problem will be a destabilizing factor in it's influence and outcome. I think we should have an influence in the Middle East now, but we should be weaning our way out of the situation maybe not totally because we have opened up a can of worms now and we will have to watch it. I'd like to see about 1/4 or a little bit less of the soldiers over there now in about a year and a half, maybe less, at the most two years.  Our influence should be more of a stabilizing and monitoring influence with the Iraqi's taking over more and more eventually of the care of the social problems that crop up in their homeland, i'd think they'd understand it better. I think there still could be WMD's in the Middle East but that Sadaam could have diseminated them among his allies terrorist or statewise to be hid in the fog of war when the invasion was imminent. Iran should be monitored closely as they have not outright waged war on us, we should try to cautiously disarm and cooperate with the situation, hopefull untill it won't turn into a war situation with them, but we should have our eye on them. Maybe the occasional carrier task force patrol, military exercise in the area you know, missiles staged close to them in case they want to get out of hand. What i'm trying to say reminds me of the quote from the Godfather "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" sage words in these times. Do i think we should withdraw? Soon, maybe year, year and a half, those boys are in a terrible situation over there.

Thanks for asking me Gunthr in such a mannerable and polite way without insulting me, i respect it .

[LEADPIG]

Quote:
 It is my belief that the policy that led to the invasion, was one of the most flawed and ignorant policies that this country has ever beset upon it's soldiers. You would think that the people pushing this policy would have been more adept at assessing the possible outcomes of the invasion, given the history of occupations in the 20th century and the history of the middle east, yet somehow, the logic was lost. - Leadpig

I'd like to acknowledge Gunthr that those words were Spoken by SkyRock not me. Thank You

 To Tango, good question a tough one, hmmmm let's see. In that situation we would have to go in and repair it, because we can't let that area of the world go to hell because of our needs. However i would put more, much more pressure on the remaining Iranian Government officials to get your, you know what in gear cause, guess what, were outta here in X amount of months, up to a year, buddy. You need help after that sorry pal, it's your country.

 As for the soldiers, i know i have heard them tell me that, because they are incredibly duty and honorably driven. I would hope that the people in charge of their use and employment would have much more common sense to know what they're getting them into and the situation that will develop before it all happens next time. I think Bush and Rumsfeld, Cheney and whoever else were horribly inept at predicting the outcome. I think Kennedy or Lincoln or Roosevelt, Theodore or Franklin would have realized much better. The most beautiful thing in a person to me is an open mind and it also makes them smarter too. I would hope our next president would be smart enough before sending our troops into a situation like this again.

I support the Troops, i do not support their leaders.

[AWMac]

Leadpig and SkyRock have either of you ever served in the Military?

I don't think so... so sit back in yer EasyBoy Commanders Armchair and just STFU.  You both have no frikken Clue.

Both are probably 300 lbs sacks of watermelon that can only make it to  the Fridge.

Ohhh BTW I did my 20 years in the Active Army.

WORD!

Mac

[LEADPIG]

Originally posted by AWMac
Leadpig and SkyRock have either of you ever served in the Military?

I don't think so... so sit back in yer EasyBoy Commanders Armchair and just STFU.  You both have no frikken Clue.

Both are probably 300 lbs sacks of watermelon that can only make it to  the Fridge.

Ohhh BTW I did my 20 years in the Active Army.

WORD!

Mac

Yer an idiot shut up.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by LEADPIG
Yer an idiot shut up.

Now that's some real respect right there. And for a former soldier too. From a guy who said he was done.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Tango
So your saying we don't have the right to go to war when our soldiers are fired upon? The Iraqis were doing just that the whole time Clinton was in office and nothing was done. Even without the WMDs it was the right thing to do.

That policy was flawed too, this dates way back.  As far as the right thing to do, there are many of those things we aren't doing, and maybe should try to do more often.  These, "moral" or "ethical" stances... ie "right things to do", should always be developed from a viewpoint to error on the side of peace.  

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Gunthr
Hi LP,

You don't think it is tactically good to be securing Iraq right now?  Or to have a presence in the Middle East right now, when IRAN is getting closer to WMD and making noise about Israel, our ally,  "disappearing?"

Do you think we should withdraw?  Do you want a deadline?

I spoke those words and I will respond.  The premise and plan that got us there, were so flawed, that it has and will continue to be "gasoline on the fire" as far as how we are going to deal with radical fundemantlism.  Bush's administration is not the only adminstration to blame for sure, but it has by far, been the most damaging.  

Do you think that a democratic IRAQ can exists in the crib of radical fundamentalism?  

Would it be worth 20,000 troops to try to establish one and fail?  

What if many of the scholars and military minds were saying your wrong, that approach will not work, why not try another route, .........would the cost still be worth trying and failing?  

That democracy needs to have a presence in the middle east is not the question, that is an objective.  The question is what is the best plan to achieve that objective.  

At any rate, I am enjoying the talk.