Author Topic: P-47 dogfighting (Read 3858 times)

Husky01 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2007, 01:58:58 AM »

Few Jug movies can be found here so you can get an idea of what she can do.

http://56fg.net/movies/movies.htm

bozon · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2007, 05:07:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by odin3
now my next questions.. what is wallowing?

The thing is that the Jug's SUSTAINED turn rate is poor. The turn radius is OK if you use the flaps but the turn rate isn't. The feeling you get is that you are flying at low speed and slowly crawling your way around the circle.

Learning how to utilize the turning radius, instead of turn rate require some ability to imagine the geometry of the fight. Instead of turning angles quicker than your opponent, you fight to position yourself in such a way that it is actually HE that is turning into your guns.

Beginners usually imagine the fight as two planes flying in co-centric circles. This is rarely the case. The first thing to do is to imagine two other possibilities:
1. Two planes in co-centric circles, one having a much smaller radius. Imagine what would happen if the inner circle plane has a lower turn rate.
2. Two planes with the same turning radius and rate (for simplicity) that start turning simultaneously, but their circles are not co-centric.
If you understand these two much more important scenarios, you will start to understand what effects geometry has on the concept of "out turning". Then imagine it in 3D with variations.

Latrobe · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2007, 05:45:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by odin3
when you say dont boom and zoom, then some say dont turn fight.. umm what else is there LOL.. i'm kinda of confused now.

There's always something I call strike runs. When you're going to a furball get really fast (350-450mph) and fly straight into it, and make very slight ajustments to your flight path to shoot enemy planes down. When you get to the middle or near the edge of the furball, immelman or spilt-s, dive fore the deck, and get out of the furball. Get a safe distance away, get some alt, get fast again, and go in again.

bj229r · « **Reply #18 on:** September 03, 2007, 08:09:29 AM »

Thats one thing i notice about jugs, they can do a split S quicker than the vast majority of the planes in here

odin3 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2007, 08:10:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
There's always something I call strike runs. When you're going to a furball get really fast (350-450mph) and fly straight into it, and make very slight ajustments to your flight path to shoot enemy planes down. When you get to the middle or near the edge of the furball, immelman or spilt-s, dive fore the deck, and get out of the furball. Get a safe distance away, get some alt, get fast again, and go in again.

But isnt that called boom and zoom? you boom into a furball zoom away and then come back and do it again. right?

Widewing · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2007, 02:12:48 PM »

One evening Dedalos and I flew a series of duels in the TA. We flew 109s, P-40s, Spits, F4Us and the P-47D-25. Flying the Jugs, we took turns hosing each other and had fun brawl. Here's a snippet of the P-47s, edited to half of the total length (would be a 4 meg file). The fight continued until fuel ran out. That, by the way is why the TA offers a different experience than the DA... Fights last a very long time and mental as well as physical fatigue actually becomes a factor. It doesn't take long to recognize that dedalos is a very capable pilot, and a great competitor.

P-47 fight

My regards,

Widewing

The Fugitive · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2007, 03:42:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by odin3
But isnt that called boom and zoom? you boom into a furball zoom away and then come back and do it again. right?

Naaaawwwww, thats called "cherry pickin"

BnZ is when you try to maintain a large "E" advantage over the enemy, never turning more than just a touch for a shot

Spitter · « **Reply #22 on:** September 04, 2007, 10:37:08 PM »

One thing I like about the bigger planes is their ability to bleed speed quickly in a climb, and gain speed pretty quick in a dive.

I'm no expert by any means, and my favorite ride is a P-38, which I find to be great vertical fighter, unlike the P-47.

Big planes like the P-47 though, are made for people who can think in 3 dimensions, like the others have mentioned here.

A high yo-yo in a turn will bleed your speed very quickly and often cause an overshoot with an opponent who has a plane that holds E better. Then if they don't break off by going vertical, you can catch many 'flat turners' on the downside of the yo yo, or at least get the speed boost to maintain a firing solution a little longer.

Like I said, I'm no expert, and I can think about these things much better than I can execute them, but the concept should be sound (the more experienced here will let me know otherwise).

Cheers,
Spitter

odin3 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 05, 2007, 06:02:25 AM »

ive been messing witht he 47 and corsair alittle bit and finding they are harder to fight with, but have got a few kills in each of them... I have a habbit of trying to turn with the plane on the way down which ends up me loosing alot of speed and then them getting behind me when i deside bad idea and go up... then i go down with no wings

the other part i have problems with right now is my gunnery.. i would have tons more kills if i can just get that up to snuff.. I've been in the training arena with the lead help on and has helped alot thus far, but when in the MA youre still guessing with the lead..

The Fugitive · « **Reply #24 on:** September 05, 2007, 07:45:35 AM »

My aim is terrible too, always has been

I think the biggest trick to a good aim is getting and remembering those "site pictures" some of the good shots talk about. This is some thing you get good at with alot of practice. In my case, I don't fly often enough for these "pictures" to stick.

One trick I figured out is this. For those strait 6 shots, I love to sneak up on someone whos not very good at SA

What I did was set my convergence on my guns at 350, then roll your favorite plane, and get to alt. and go to auto level heading north. Set the target to your guns convergence (.target 350). Fire a good burst, zoom in and check "where" your rounds landed. This will show you how much of a drop your rounds have at that distance. You can check out other "ranges" while your at it. So far its helped me hit much better from a strait 6 shot.

I wonder if printing out some "screen shots" taken while using the "lead computing site" in the TA might be an idea.... kiinda like "flash cards" for aiming

I think that might be the next thing I try.

odin3 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 05, 2007, 11:45:30 AM »

whats the SA?

The Fugitive · « **Reply #26 on:** September 05, 2007, 12:08:58 PM »

Situational Awarness, it means being aware of everything going on around you. Where other threats may come from, knowing whos the biggest threat, if there are any friendlies around, where you nearest base is, both friendly and enemy, plane types and so on. Basically every bit of information you could use to help you.

odin3 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 05, 2007, 05:26:42 PM »

ohh o.k. that makes sence. i know i've gotten use to looking at whats around me alot lately. like for expample, the other day i was in the jug and up at about 13k and dove down onto a spit at about 6k, well needless to say that a 109 was right behind me and didnt notice him, he was about 3k above me, so i saw about 5 friendly and dove right to them and lucky me, they got the 109 before he got me pulled up found the spit and went in for the kill.. Thats the only kill I got on the 47 so far..

bozon · « **Reply #28 on:** September 05, 2007, 07:53:16 PM »

Stick with it odin, more kills will follow.
When I was in your stage, what helped me the most were P-47 films posted by Lephturn and Frenchy. While I may not be the hottest Jug stick, here are a few films to help you visualize what people suggested above.

I normally fly the jug very aggressively, which is not a good way to pad your score but is very fun - even if you get killed, as you will see. BnZ is for idiots and require mostly god aim, some SA and the will to run from danger. The stick is there only as a phallic symbol for you to grab. Knife fighting is where the real fun starts.

Do not worry about your gunnery. I've been playing since early 2002 and still hit ~5% which is abysmal after that long time. Anyway, I hope these help. Select "use recorded views" to see how to work the view system and you can turn "Trail" on to check out the geometry.

D11 vs. Hurri. I set up a bait, but over estimate his speed. Note the rolling defense (keep him lagged 90 degree in the roll) and out of plane turns. I hit the snapshot but to my surprise he flies on and fights back:
http://files.filefront.com/D11vsHurri2c+0000ahf/;8488348;/fileinfo.html

D25 vs. some persistent K61 and 190A5. I underestimated the Ki and miss too many shots, but it was fun:
http://files.filefront.com/knivesahf/;8488258;/fileinfo.html

Good example of rolling scissors, bad example of gunnery:
http://files.filefront.com/47vsla5+rollingahf/;8488218;/fileinfo.html

I offer my 6 to a P38 who is hesitant in biting and plays it very carefully. Eventually develops into rolling scissors and the 38 just refuses to die:
http://files.filefront.com/47vs38+rollingahf/;8488211;/fileinfo.html

Very fun deck fighting with a seafire, till an F6F crashes the party. "skillfuly ditched"

:
http://files.filefront.com/47vsSeafire+ditchahf/;8488257;/fileinfo.html

redman555 · « **Reply #29 on:** September 05, 2007, 08:42:51 PM »

P-47D-40, my favroite plane, i out turn F4Us in that babe, its a great plane, use the high speed flaps as an adavantage

BigbobCH