Author Topic: which is best and which is worst  (Read 6145 times)

Offline shamroc

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which is best and which is worst
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2007, 08:13:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Delirium

Also, when I said 'I blame the vets', it was mostly aimed at the score whoring from 'vets' that is so prevelent in AH today.


Scraping the dead horse out of the ditch, but I wish they'd turn off the scoring - even if it was a voluntary thing where you could turn your own score off.  

You'd see the game completely change for the better if they turned off scoring.  "Back in the days" of Airwarrior and early Warbirds, good pilots were recognized by fighting ability, not K/D or rank.  If you wanted to make a name for yourself, you had to earn it by word of mouth.

I've found the best sticks in AH today have a K/D of 1.5 to 2 at the most - the guys with the super high scores are nowhere near as good, but unfortunately, it seems everyone is rated by their scores by and large.

Shamroc

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #136 on: September 08, 2007, 09:27:34 AM »
but unfortunately, it seems everyone is rated by their scores by and large.

Not in my book then aren't.
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #137 on: September 08, 2007, 02:00:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Delirium
.....

Also, when I said 'I blame the vets', it was mostly aimed at the score whoring from 'vets' that is so prevelent in AH today.



I don't think the pattern comes from the vets much at all. It may have more to do with the environment itself being much more crowded than it must have been in the past.

Yesterday I got talking with the CO of a squad that plays a very different game, oriented completely toward staying alive and getting their squad ranked. These guys are not the "vets" you've been talking about -- when I looked up their squad, I didnt recognize any of the names and it turns out that only 10%-15% are in the top THOUSAND for fighter rank. And mind you, they play for rank.

The CO -- not a kid -- said he teaches his guys to "fly like they did historically." To him, this means don't engage alone, don't get in unless you have an overwhelming tactical advantage, don't take risks, keep your focus on the immediate goal (ie, getting base captures, scoring vehicle points, killing enemies). An entire squad, measuring itself by score...and chasing it not by "filling in the blanks" with PT rockets, but by deliberately avoiding challenges.

Now its their $15, and if that's what they want to do then its no skin off my back. But I think it shows that there are subsets in AH that have given up on the kind of combat success that the early vets pursued. And talking to him reminded me of the many conversations I've had with gys who arent all that interested in getting better at combat.

I think many players have been overwhelmed by the learning curve, and have tried to find any way they can to feel successful, even at the cost of giving up on ACM. In my few years here, I've run into more than a few who've literally said "I'll never be good in fighters" and have no interest trying any more. It's like "learned helplessness," when Pavlov's dogs got shocked without reason or recourse enough that they stopped trying to get away, even when the straps were removed. But in this case, rather than stop playing, they've found a niche, or a squad, that lets them have fun without developing more skills.

The vets may have helped indirectly with the "learned helplessness" -- its overwhelming to come up against guys with a decade's ACM. Yesterday after having 3 "good fights" where my rolling scissor, or energy management, or gunnery wasnt quite good enough, I decided to go someplace the Muppets weren't flying. Multiply that feeling by 10, and take away the deliberate learning I've tried to get, and you can see that AH will make many feel like a caveman trying to understand PC design.

I think thats the nature of the problem. A huge community, an overwhelmingly difficult challenge, and a desire to feel successful. I'm not sure there's a solution for that, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 03:39:46 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #138 on: September 08, 2007, 02:38:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
its overwhelming to come up against guys with a decade's ACM.

I was with you until here, Simaril.  But I just don't think that this "I'm quitting because I get shot down too much" should be supported in any way.  Of course you're going to get shot down by people who are better than you, and of course, when you first begin, that will happen every time.  It happened to you when you started, it happened to me when I first started.  Heck, I've been playing AW or AH for eleven years now, and it's STILL happening to me - plenty of people here own me every time we meet.  If you can't take that as a part of learning, then I really think you SHOULD move on to something else.  Some people play checkers, some play chess, whichever you prefer is no reflection on your value to humanity.

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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2007, 03:02:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
I was with you until here, Simaril.  But I just don't think that this "I'm quitting because I get shot down too much" should be supported in any way.  Of course you're going to get shot down by people who are better than you, and of course, when you first begin, that will happen every time.  It happened to you when you started, it happened to me when I first started.  Heck, I've been playing AW or AH for eleven years now, and it's STILL happening to me - plenty of people here own me every time we meet.  If you can't take that as a part of learning, then I really think you SHOULD move on to something else.  Some people play checkers, some play chess, whichever you prefer is no reflection on your value to humanity.

- oldman


Oh, I'm not quitting at all -- I keep trying, step by step. Even last night, I kept upping and running into an Army of Muppets....until I got tired of it, and decided to go someplace I could blow stuff up.

I think most people have a "schooled" limit -- a place where dying without success just gets old. And, just like I was saying, we all have a way that we define success. For me, that's giving some lead back now and then. Others might be able to get owned 20 times straight without getting discouraged, but I get discouraged faster than that, unless I'm landing a punch here and there too (not necessarily akill, just getting a few licks in.)

Also, I had just come from the DA (not a place I go often at all), and had been repeatedly owned in there. After each match, I asked where I went wrong and what I could have done better. But, still, not getting to shoot at all for an hour (like I said, pwned), followed by 3 straight splats after fights with muppets, well, I had enough.
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Offline Delirium

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« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2007, 05:33:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
"fly like they did historically." To him, this means don't engage alone, don't get in unless you have an overwhelming tactical advantage, don't take risks, keep your focus on the immediate goal  


That is generally how I fly scenarios... I'll cheap shot, horde, and work a single bandit with a whole squadron just to keep us all safe.

I don't understand doing this in the MA however, it seems like an incredible waste of time and makes for some boring nights.
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Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2007, 06:05:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Others might be able to get owned 20 times straight without getting discouraged

Most recently, you need only ask Maha or Dedalos about their ratio against Oldman.

Simaril, I've flown with and against you, and you are one of the better sticks here.  You got that way by coming back, again and again, against people who could teach you how to improve.  I don't think we should weaken that process by making things easier for new folks.

- oldman (...er...was that clear?)

Offline pluck

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« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2007, 06:14:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by shamroc
.... it seems everyone is rated by their scores by and large.

Shamroc


Disagree 100%.
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storch

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« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2007, 07:25:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
Most recently, you need only ask Maha or Dedalos about their ratio against Oldman.

Simaril, I've flown with and against you, and you are one of the better sticks here.  You got that way by coming back, again and again, against people who could teach you how to improve.  I don't think we should weaken that process by making things easier for new folks.

- oldman (...er...was that clear?)
ah ah ah ah aaaaaaaaaaaaa ah OM kills don't count.

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2007, 08:11:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
Most recently, you need only ask Maha or Dedalos about their ratio against Oldman.

Simaril, I've flown with and against you, and you are one of the better sticks here.  You got that way by coming back, again and again, against people who could teach you how to improve.  I don't think we should weaken that process by making things easier for new folks.

- oldman (...er...was that clear?)


Getting the feeling that I gave a wrong impression. I don't think the game should be made easier in any way...in fact, I think that it succeeds primarily BECAUSE it's so deep and challenging. No game I've ever tried ha kept my interest for more than a month or two, but this one (and its community) has held me for almost 4 years (and counting).

All I was trying to get across is this -- I think that not everyone reacts to the challenge the same way. It took me a long time to wrap my head around the idea that some people simply don't want to get better at it, but keep playing anyway. Maybe they find a groove they're comfortable with, and stay right there....and to them, every time they step out of the zone of what they can do comfortably, and find that they get smashed, it reinforces their decision to keep to what they know they can do.

And I think that's a big part of the differences the old timers see. The bigger arenas, the difficulty of leaving or fighting the horde, the very long path to being good in fighters all make it harder to hang in -- and easier to follow the path of least resistance. I think vets can be a big part of helping people escape that path, but I don't think its the vets fault that the easy path is attractive. No matter what, though, we have to admit that there are people who flat out aren't interested in learning more.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 08:17:13 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Yknurd

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« Reply #145 on: September 08, 2007, 10:41:00 PM »
I have a new worst:  all the H2H whining
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storch

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« Reply #146 on: September 08, 2007, 10:50:20 PM »
worster than black power?

Offline Grayeagle

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« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2007, 01:03:17 AM »
Aye NHawk I am Damned Grayeagle :)

Delirium, I am glad you spent the time to teach some folks.
Most don't.

Personally.. I've always regarded the MA as the place to practice the skills I need when I fly scenarios ..a place to meet other enthusiasts ..and a great place to just have some fun.

I have to admit .. I dont go there much anymore.
After so long doin this and other computer games..
..I didnt realize how out of shape I had become.

Decided it was time to find somethin that involved 'outside' and meeting other folks ..so I got a black Vette (which means.. I gotta clean it every other day or so) ..and the clubs, cruises, meets, car shows ..just what I needed :)

-GE
'The better I shoot ..the less I have to manuever'
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Offline E25280

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« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2007, 02:18:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Grayeagle
Decided it was time to find somethin that involved 'outside' and meeting other folks ..so I got a black Vette (which means.. I gotta clean it every other day or so) ..and the clubs, cruises, meets, car shows ..just what I needed :)

-GE
That sounds a little more expensive than $15 / month . . .
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« Reply #149 on: September 09, 2007, 06:33:14 AM »
you can also wake up at 0500 and run for an hour that costs nothing and gives you something