Darfur

[Toad]

From Blackhawk Down:

WITH ALL THE DELAYS, it was 11:20 p.m. before they were ready to pull out of the gate. The Pakistani leader sprinted to David's humvee. He said they had been ordered not to lead the convoy. So David worked out a compromise. The tanks would escort for the first few miles, through any ambushes or roadblocks, then pull back and let Alpha Company pull out front in the APCs.

The Mogadishu Mile

Originally they were supposed to take cover by running alongside a convoy of Humvees and armored personnel carriers, however when the convoy outpaced them they were forced to run without support and with very little ammunition.

[Toad]

BTW, the chances of any country helping settle the situation in Darfur militarily are about the same as France solving the Iranian nuclear confrontation using military force.

[eagl]

It kills me that the same a**clowns who claim Vietnam, Somalia, and Iraq were "disasters" are the same fools demanding that the US govt "do something!!!!!111one".

The people getting raped and murdered in Africa don't want our presence any more than the ones doing the raping and murdering.  Our culture is completely alien to many of them and they simply will not adopt our values.   Attempting to help societies that are built around violent struggles over resources by simply attempting to interfere with the violence is never going to work.  Temporarily alleviating the resource shortages isn't much better because as soon as we leave, they'll be back fighting.

And look at how South Africa has degraded in the last few years.  That place has gone to crap, in spite of all the international attention and assistance.  It's a completely different culture and "assistance" is going to be seen as "interference" no matter what we do.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Toad
BTW, the chances of any country helping settle the situation in Darfur militarily are about the same as France solving the Iranian nuclear confrontation using military force.

As much as we jest about france, I think they may have turned it around.







And Eagle, you are not implying that RACE has something to do with it, are you?

[Viking]

Originally posted by Dago
All you know about the Somalia situation is what you saw watching a movie.   Do some real research for a change, I met guys who were there.

Sure you did laserboy.

Originally posted by Dago
And be realistic about UN troops, they typically don't do crap, almost as irrelevant as the UN itself, and Norway for that matter.

That's because you're ignorant of the truth, but I can't really blame you much for that since most people are ignorant of the UN. Especially in your part of the world. The problem for the UN, is that the successes are by definition quiet. Your military has, to some degree, a similar problem in Iraq. Headlines you will never see include "Ceasefire between Ethiopia and Eritrea Holds for 7th Consecutive Year," "Zero Killed in Cyprus," or "East Timor Still Functioning."

Most people are completely ignorant to just how frequently the UN puts itself between trigger happy combatants around the world: Lebanon, Cyprus, the Golan, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, Namibia, Angola, El Salvador, Cambodia, Somalia, Mozambique, Rwanda, Georgia, Liberia, Haiti, Tajikistan, the former Yugoslavia, Guatemala, Sierra Leone, Ethiopia and Eritrea, Côte d'Ivoire, the Congo, India and Pakistan and East Timor, just in the last 20 years.

Now ... which ones of these do most people associate with the United Nations? The ones where the UN troops failed to prevent disaster: Somalia, Rwanda, and Bosnia. The successes are forgotten.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Toad
From Blackhawk Down:

WITH ALL THE DELAYS, it was 11:20 p.m. before they were ready to pull out of the gate. The Pakistani leader sprinted to David's humvee. He said they had been ordered not to lead the convoy. So David worked out a compromise. The tanks would escort for the first few miles, through any ambushes or roadblocks, then pull back and let Alpha Company pull out front in the APCs.
 

If you want to blame someone lay the blame on the right people:

Task Force Ranger, commanded by Major General Garrison, operated independently of the UN contingent. Organized as the Joint[1] Special Operations Task Force (JSOTF), Task Force Ranger reported directly to U. S. Central Command (CENTCOM) rather than Major General Montgomery, Commander United States Forces, Somalia. Although Garrison kept Montgomery well informed, this convoluted Chain of Command critically delayed relief efforts on 3 / 4 October 1993. In addition, for political reasons Secretary of Defense Les Aspin rejected requests by Garrison, Montgomery and then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell for armored support.

After a lengthy but understandable delay, given the dual chain of command, a rescue force comprised of two rifle companies from 10th Mountain Division, two Malaysian mechanized companies with Armored Personnel Carriers (APC's), an ad hoc platoon from Task Force Ranger and one Pakistani tank platoon, supported by army and special operations aircraft, was finally able to extract the stranded troops. The infamous "Mogadishu Mile" began at 0542 as the Ranger and Delta Force rear guard trailed out of the city.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/general/articles/mogadishu.aspx

[Maverick]

sholtz,

You actually had a part of the real problem but it was buried. Here is the secondary problem stated.

"In addition, for political reasons Secretary of Defense Les Aspin rejected requests by Garrison, Montgomery and then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell for armored support. "

One of the things that sicks in my mind was stephanopolous quipping to the press about the denied request for armor support was that the military needed to understand that there was a civilian in charge now.

Of course the first problem was the troops being there when we had no identifiable national interest in the region.

[Dago]

I remember a tard from the Norway area trying to tell me about what a bad bellybutton he was when he deployed with the UN to protect the innocent.  Well, this tard, went by the name of gscholz or something like that then told me about a massacre in a village right down the road from where they were.   Yeah, real impressive, telling me about how they were there to protect the people, then telling about their miserable failure to do just that.

Very much the ineffective irrelevant force those Norway staffed UN forces, like being protected by OJ Simpson himself.   He just convinced me he was useless, the Norwegian forces staffing the UN force were useless just at the UN is useless.

So, why would a fool want to sit in judgement of US forces when he comes from and served with such an uneffective useless force himself?

On an aside, I bet the Ranger force that was in Somalia could take Norway by themselves, while the Somali's stood and faught, that gsholz guy seemed to relate how he cowered behind a vehicle when he got shot at.

Never sit in judgement viking when you haven't been in that situation, you know, one where you actually stood up and faught an overwhelming force and survived.

[lazs2]

there is  a reason that most people are ignorant of all the good the UN does...

It is because the UN so rarely blunders into doing good in all the screw ups they do.

lazs

[Viking]

Originally posted by Dago
I remember a tard from the Norway area trying to tell me about what a bad bellybutton he was when he deployed with the UN to protect the innocent.  Well, this tard, went by the name of gscholz or something like that then told me about a massacre in a village right down the road from where they were.   Yeah, real impressive, telling me about how they were there to protect the people, then telling about their miserable failure to do just that.

Very much the ineffective irrelevant force those Norway staffed UN forces, like being protected by OJ Simpson himself.   He just convinced me he was useless, the Norwegian forces staffing the UN force were useless just at the UN is useless.

So, why would a fool want to sit in judgement of US forces when he comes from and served with such an uneffective useless force himself?

On an aside, I bet the Ranger force that was in Somalia could take Norway by themselves, while the Somali's stood and faught, that gsholz guy seemed to relate how he cowered behind a vehicle when he got shot at.

Never sit in judgement viking when you haven't been in that situation, you know, one where you actually stood up and faught an overwhelming force and survived.

As usual you are full of BS, and your attemts at goading me are pathetic  I can't actually find one single thing that you are correct about in your post. Impressive. Gscholz may be banned, but his posts are still around; I dare you to find quotations for your accusations. Of course you won't since you never were much interested in the truth. I especially find your last paragraph ironic seeing how I'm not "sitting in judgment" over the US forces involved; I'm defending the UN forces involved from people like you who sit in judgment on them in this very thread. Have you been in "that situation, you know, one where you actually stood up and fought an overwhelming force and survived"? For that matter, have you been in any combat situation? Didn't think so. Are you going to use your son's merits to bolster your pathetic argument again, like you usually do?

[Dago]

Originally posted by Viking
As usual you are full of BS, and your attemts at goading me are pathetic  I can't actually find one single thing that you are correct about in your post. Impressive. Gscholz may be banned, but his posts are still around; I dare you to find quotations for your accusations. Of course you won't since you never were much interested in the truth. I especially find your last paragraph ironic seeing how I'm not "sitting in judgment" over the US forces involved; I'm defending the UN forces involved from people like you who sit in judgment on them in this very thread. Have you been in "that situation, you know, one where you actually stood up and fought an overwhelming force and survived"? For that matter, have you been in any combat situation? Didn't think so. Are you going to use your son's merits to bolster your pathetic argument again, like you usually do?

Big differance between you and my son, he has really been there and done that, and still is, you are just one pathetic poser jealous of real soldiers.

You have now proven yourself to be a sad liar, and seem to forget your own stories of your failure to do your job protecting the innocent.  Cowar in your base while those you are tasked to protect die.  Yeah, you're a bad ass, Norway is the one country that makes France look good militarily.  Your country folded to Germany faster than damn near any other country, and then had to wait for Britain to bail your tulips out.  Deny that why don't you?

Then repeat the story of the village that was massacred on your watch just to impress us with your incredible skill.