Author Topic: They hate our freedom... really? (Read 1108 times)

x0847Marine · « **on:** September 22, 2007, 02:01:02 PM »

Yea this is a cannibalized post.

An alternate view, more accurate than any party formulated BS bumper sticker imo, about why "they" hate the US. Might put a little context as to why so many people in the mid east welcome the opportunity to fight Americans; a time honored tradition in that part of the world: payback.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html

"While Americans may know little about Operation Ajax, its memory still evokes intense anger from nearly every Iranian."

"In essence, the United States had engaged in a massive covert operation designed to remove a democratically elected leader from power and reinstall an authoritarian monarch..."

"This affair had several disastrous ramifications for the future of American-Iranian relations. First, the Shah, from that point forward, was viewed as a creature of America. Consequently, America became an accessory to his every oppressive act during the subsequent 26 years of his rule"

SteveBailey · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2007, 02:05:59 PM »

Would you even consider the possibility that not everything is America's fault?

Would you even consider the possibility that the religion of Islam is not a religion of peace and their more radical members are dangerous extremists?

I know you are part of the blame America first crowd... yes you plainly are so there is no point in disputing it, but is there any part of your conscience that could give just the slightest consideration to the above possibilities?

MiloMorai · « **Reply #2 on:** September 22, 2007, 02:23:45 PM »

Steve, I have a question for you.

Why do you think many people have a 'hate' on for the USofA?

babek- · « **Reply #3 on:** September 22, 2007, 02:25:38 PM »

Operation Ajax destroyed a dream of many young iranians.

In an unbloody revolution the high respected prime minister Mossadegh managed to force the dictator Shah Reza Pahlevi to italian exile.

Mossadegh himself could have put himself as a new Shah on the throne. He was a member of the Kadjar family which ruled Iran as Shahs until the 20ties.

But he wanted to build a democracy.

His fault was that his politic was not acceptable for the UK and US government. So a "counter-revolution" was made and the Shah was reinstalled.

To avoid that the Shah could be kicked out of power again the secret services, especially the CIA and the Mossad trained the SAVAK, the imperial iranian secret police.

In the following decades the SAVAK tortured and eliminated ten-thousands of iranians, most of them those who wanted a democracy of western style.

This terror made the iranians so desperate that they just wanted to end the situation. They just wanted the Shah regime kicked out, the SAVAK kicked out and the terror ends.

Finally, after a massacre against demonstrating peoples the situation escalated and the bloody revolution happened. The Shah, who always dreamed being a new Cyrus the Great fled Iran like a reborn Daryavush III.

The iranians were first happy that the terror of the Shah had ended. they feared a second Operation Ajax and a second reinstallation of the Shah-terror-regime.

That was used by the creatures around Ajatolla Chomeini and suddenly the iranians had to realize that they just had changed one terror regime with another one.

But when the arabs of Saddam attacked Iran the iranians stopped all inner political fightings, because the nation was threatened by arabs. So in the the 8 years of this bloody war the mullahs couls establish and secure their power.

Today most of the iranians want to kick out the mullah regime. But this time they want to be sure that the successor will not be a next terror regime.

And after watching what happened in Iraq they surely dont want that foreigners establish anything new in Iran.

The democracy in Iran must be created by iranians of Iran and not dreaming exiles of Tehrangeles or MEK-supporters of Europe.

And now just imagine how stable the region would be, if the dream of Prime Minister Mossadegh would have become true and Iran had been developed itself to a democracy. We would have a strong non arab nation which would built an natural alliance with the other non arab states in the region : Turkey and Israel.

But so we have to pay the price for a stupid decision made 50 years ago.

SteveBailey · « **Reply #4 on:** September 22, 2007, 02:37:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Steve, I have a question for you.

Why do you think many people have a 'hate' on for the USofA?

You have put words in my mouth that I have never uttered. Request to answer bait question: DENIED

x0847Marine · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2007, 12:36:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Would you even consider the possibility that not everything is America's fault?

Would you even consider the possibility that the religion of Islam is not a religion of peace and their more radical members are dangerous extremists?

I know you are part of the blame America first crowd... yes you plainly are so there is no point in disputing it, but is there any part of your conscience that could give just the slightest consideration to the above possibilities?

It's not "Americas fault", blame lies squarely on the spineless shoulders of our so called leaders and their foreign policies disasters of yester year, yesterday, today, tomorrow..

Seriously, you think the average middle eastern haji wakes up in the morning wicked-pissed that strangers in a country 1/2 a world away have porn, jury trials and Britney spears? And that these freedoms so infuriate him, and his pals, Blood thirsty crazy Muslims want to follow us home like Lassie and blow up soccer moms?

I'm sure to a simp like Shrub, this makes perfect sense, and its under 10 words.

But here's a crazy idea, lets ask that haters whats up?
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2002/nf20020415_0109.htm

Zogby surveyed residents of 5 Arab nations, 3 non-Arab Islamic, and 2 others "The bottom line: While they have overwhelmingly negative reaction to U.S. policy positions, Arabs and Muslims are not opposed to all things American.

Gee, imagine that.. when asked, they're not against all things American after all, but do hate our policies.

But don't let reality and truth get in the way of some bumper sticker propaganda goodness, hating freedoms!? holey donkey!!! those freak'n camel humping *******s probably hate apple pie, mom and baseball too!!

Ghosth · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2007, 08:45:06 AM »

Ever since WWII and the bomb the US goverment felt like it could be the worlds cop. It was going to decide the rules and enforce them. As a result they have made some extremely stupid decisions.

Make a clean start with the next president. STOP playing world cop.
Apologize for past mistakes, but make the point that they were not "my" mistakes. IE they happened under other presidents. Quit worrying about the world, and go back to worrying about us, we have more than plenty to worry about.

Redo or make a new foreign policy committee with some decent talent to help keep us from screwing up again. And the next time the CIA tries to change who's running a country, disband it, cut the funding, and fire every one of those sob's.

lazs2 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2007, 09:25:16 AM »

xmarine... I do think the average isloamofacist wakes up with a hate for a people half a world away that he has probly never seen except on tv.

He does so because charismatic leaders tell him that he must... he does so because they tell him that it is not his fault or... more importantly...their fault that he is living a 9th century life and that having a religion stuck in the 9th century is not the reason.

Some of our less well thought out and/or greedy operations don't help but... it would have been this way regardless.

lazs

AKIron · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2007, 09:28:27 AM »

Indeed they do fear our freedoms as perhaps well they should. To embrace western culture, at least as practiced in the US, would virtually destroy their religion centered society. They have only to observe our transformation over the last century to see that this is true.

Torque · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2007, 09:45:10 AM »

sheesh... you guys have more in common than differences.

Bodhi · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:07:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SteveBailey

Would you even consider the possibility that the religion of Islam is not a religion of peace and their more radical members are dangerous extremists?

Maybe you should consider that your point of view is discriminatory hatred. Islam is a religion of peace. There are unfortunate elements in their society that are fighting back for a crime that was committed in the late 40's after the formation of a country through land that was stolen. Sadly, that is not a way to create peace, but is instead a way that is fostering hatred amongst members of the west (who can not sem to remember the reason the underlying cause of the problem). Until the west, that created the problem initially, collectively apologizes for the crime of theft of the lands and promises it will never happen again, then we will continue to have the problem of terrorism in the middle east.

One last thing for you to think about. Iran in not an Arab nation. They are Persian.

The league of Arab Nations (which does not include Iran) has agreed to a peace accord with Israel if they comply with the formation of an independent Palestinian state and a promise that Israel will take no more land. Israel refuses to comply.

Think a bit deeper now, do you really believe that the Iranians are going to be able to threaten the Israeli's while they have a peace accord with the Arab world? Do you think they, the Iranians, are not going to be held accountable for irradiating Arab lands if a peace were to exist between the Arab World and Israel?

AKIron · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:19:16 AM »

Putting a bounty on the heads of cartootnists and writers who offend Islam doesn't further the idea that Islam is a religion of peace.

Bodhi · « **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:21:29 AM »

US troops murdering innocent Iraqi citizens does not put forth the idea we are there to help.

AKIron · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:23:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bodhi
US troops murdering innocent Iraqi citizens does not put forth the idea we are there to help.

If those "innocents" had done more to prevent Saddam from invading a peaceful neighbor and then threatening for 12 years those who put things right we wouldn't be cleaning up their house. It's too convenient for the Saddam apologists to forget these facts imo.

Thrawn · « **Reply #14 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:24:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
Indeed they do fear our freedoms as perhaps well they should. To embrace western culture, at least as practiced in the US, would virtually destroy their religion centered society. They have only to observe our transformation over the last century to see that this is true.

That's ironic considering that the actions of the UK and US turned a secular government into a theocracy.

And now of course, they are doing the same thing in Iraq.