Author Topic: They hate our freedom... really? (Read 1078 times)

AKIron · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:28:03 AM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
That's ironic considering that the actions of the UK and US turned a secular government into a theocracy.

And now of course, they are doing the same thing in Iraq.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Edmund Burke

Bodhi · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:30:21 AM »

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Originally posted by AKIron
If those "innocents" had done more to prevent Saddam from invading a peaceful neighbor and then threatening for 12 years those who put things right we wouldn't be cleaning up their house. It's too convenient for the Saddam apologists to forget these facts imo.

It also seems convenient that anytime anyone questions the actions of the west in Iraq that they are labeled a "Sadaam apologist" or some other imbecilic term.

Yet, anytime someone wants to lump the entire Islamic world into one of violence and killing it is just fine.

Seems kind of hypocritical AKIron.

AKIron · « **Reply #17 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:32:09 AM »

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Originally posted by Bodhi
It also seems convenient that anytime anyone questions the actions of the west in Iraq that they are labeled a "Sadaam apologist" or some other imbecilic term.

Yet, anytime someone wants to lump the entire Islamic world into one of violence and killing it is just fine.

Seems kind of hypocritical AKIron.

How else would you describe someone who says Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power? This is not a rhetorical question.

Bodhi · « **Reply #18 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:34:41 AM »

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Originally posted by AKIron
How else would you describe someone who says Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power? This is not a rhetorical question.

Who here has said Iraq would be better off with Sadaam still in power?

john9001 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:34:56 AM »

Bodhi, are you sure they dont hate us because Alexander the great conquered Persia? That must have hurt their national pride.

eagl · « **Reply #20 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:36:17 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
xmarine... I do think the average isloamofacist wakes up with a hate for a people half a world away that he has probly never seen except on tv.

He does so because charismatic leaders tell him that he must... he does so because they tell him that it is not his fault or... more importantly...their fault that he is living a 9th century life and that having a religion stuck in the 9th century is not the reason.

lazs

Bingo.

AKIron · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:36:28 AM »

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Originally posted by Bodhi
Who here has said Iraq would be better off with Sadaam still in power?

Can you be very clear then and say you supported the US invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam?

Bodhi · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:39:07 AM »

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Originally posted by john9001
Bodhi, are you sure they dont hate us because Alexander the great conquered Persia? That must have hurt their national pride.

I suspect much of the hatred that exists in the leadership in Iran is because of the issues surrounding the creation of the Shah and that error. I do not believe that the average Iranian hates the US, instead they aspire to emulate our democracy but fear that failure will only lead to persecution and the formation of an even worse theocracy.

eagl · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:41:05 AM »

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Originally posted by john9001
Bodhi, are you sure they dont hate us because Alexander the great conquered Persia? That must have hurt their national pride.

Looking back on my history lessons, I'm not sure the history books ought to say "conquered" Persia any more than the US "conquered" Iraq... Yea we have the power to kill every living creature there and we have 100,000+ troops with nearly universal freedom of movement, but to call it conquered implies that they're brought into the nation-state entity of the invaders.

If you want good examples of regions that were conquered and stayed conquered, look at North and South America. Western Europe did a fine job with South America and the East coast of North America, and the indiginous people never came back as political entities until deliberately allowed to.

I don't remember, but how long did Persia stay conquered?

Bodhi · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:43:33 AM »

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Originally posted by AKIron
Can you be very clear then and say you supported the US invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam?

I can and have said I supported the removal of Sadaam. He was a murdering tyrant that deserved what he received. Iraq on the other side has gotten the short end of the stick.

The plan that we invaded with was an extremely flawed plan, and something that is going to tie us to occupation in Iraq for many years to come. This is something that our administration and the JCoS never thought about. We would been much better off appointing a man like Patreus to begin with. General Patreus is far better suited to understanding the underlying issues at hand because of his phd in history and middle eastern studies.

AKIron · « **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:50:39 AM »

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Originally posted by Bodhi
I can and have said I supported the removal of Sadaam. He was a murdering tyrant that deserved what he received. Iraq on the other side has gotten the short end of the stick.

The plan that we invaded with was an extremely flawed plan, and something that is going to tie us to occupation in Iraq for many years to come. This is something that our administration and the JCoS never thought about. We would been much better off appointing a man like Patreus to begin with. General Patreus is far better suited to understanding the underlying issues at hand because of his phd in history and middle eastern studies.

Very well, I don't consider you a Saddam apologist. Your comment about US soldiers murdering innocent Iraqis rubbed me wrong. Americans murder Americans. Iraqis murder Iraqis. Americans murder Iraqis and Iraqis murder Americans. Murder is what some people with little moral restraint do. Perhaps you weren't characterizing our efforts there as muderous but that's how it seemed in that post. Perhaps I took it out of context.

Bodhi · « **Reply #26 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:56:59 AM »

I do not consider our troops murderers. Some members of our military have hurt our fight in Iraq with their actions is what I meant.

I should probably have worded it better.

john9001 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2007, 11:05:27 AM »

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Originally posted by eagl

I don't remember, but how long did Persia stay conquered?

gee, i thought you would never ask.

Greeks ruled until about 250 BC.

the arab caliphate took over about 650 AD after persia was weakened with wars with the byzantine empire.

turks ruled 1037 to 1219.

mongols ruled 1219 to 1500.

europeans finally got there in 1722.

so, you can see they have plenty of reasons to hate the USA.

Sixpence · « **Reply #28 on:** September 23, 2007, 11:22:09 AM »

We are American, we admit no wrong doing, to do so would be terrorist loving

AKIron · « **Reply #29 on:** September 23, 2007, 11:31:10 AM »

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Originally posted by Sixpence
We are American, we admit no wrong doing, to do so would be terrorist loving

That's just silly. What's sillier though is to do nothing because we have done wrong. Certainly that is what our enemies would prefer. Of course it may be too unsophisticated or anti-globalismist to use the word "enemy".