Author Topic: Baiting Iraqis  (Read 876 times)

Offline Jackal1

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Baiting Iraqis
« on: September 25, 2007, 02:45:07 AM »
This is the kind of stuff that burns my behind to read in the middle of the night when Mr. Pain pays a visit. You train a soldier to kill the enemy. You send them into hell.............then they need a full time lawyer to accompany them at all times to avoid prosecution.
This is complete BS. The media needs to take a hike. Baiting has been part of warfare from the very start of warfare.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis

By PAULINE JELINEK and ROBERT BURNS, Associated Press Writers 1 hour, 15 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."

"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.

Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.

The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.

"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.

Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.

The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.

The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.

"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."

The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.

Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.

The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.

The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.

They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.
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Offline Angus

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 05:16:23 AM »
How about boobytraps instead then. Like the Russkies used in Afganistan?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2007, 05:41:38 AM »
What a load of garbage.  

     If it keeps us from losing just one troop from a roadside bomb, etc, I'm all for it:aok

     What must we wait for to prove that an enemy is an enemy?   Does someone need to be waving a gun and screaming, "Jihad!" before we can shoot them?  Just exactly what is our world coming to?:furious


all those who defend the stars & stripes:aok :aok :aok

P.S.
         Put my name on ine if the rounds, like we did back in the good old days
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 05:44:17 AM by VonMessa »
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2007, 06:25:32 AM »
Writing articles about it sure doesn't help.  Mr. Insurgent is probably reading this article on Yahoo and is considering which bozo (or child) he plans to send to pick up anything that may be considered "bait".
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Offline Neubob

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2007, 07:13:37 AM »
Nuke Islam.

Offline LEADPIG

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2007, 07:51:44 AM »
The enemy is so hard to identify over there and engage they have to bait them like deer.  That tells me the large scale conventional army in Iraq is pointless, and at a great disadvantage when they're having to bait fleas just to get a kill or two. Then you can't be totally sure they're not killing somebody innocent checking out something laying on the ground.

But i say it's about all they got to identify these crazy insurgents, so bait if they have to. If it stops one soldier from getting killed that's wonderful. The insurgents aren't playing our game so why are we insisting on it. It's time to get a little dirty. I'd say special op's tactics, maybe like the ones used in Vietnam to kill the VC should be used, it seemed to be working. The way were doing it now however is not going to work.

Offline lazs2

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2007, 07:58:10 AM »
yep... SOG was very effective.   I wonder why we can't just pick have 24 hr surveilance on a few roads that we use.. be it sat or whatever.    

I did see a vid where some snipers were in pits and they just waited for the bomb planters.   Seems you could keep an eye on the main roads pretty easy.

lazs

Offline LEADPIG

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2007, 08:12:19 AM »
I wish Lasz, but it's just too many of the the roads and they're too long. Don't think we'd have enough people for that. This whole damn war is so insidiuos and lopsided in terms of two of the most important elements. Stealth and surprise. Those two factors can usually beat numbers and technology any day. Something the army and it's leaders need to be cognizant of.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2007, 09:05:30 AM »
I simply wonder why.. we can't look at the satalite photos and say..... "oh, by the way... we see a IED device being planted north of mile marker ## on road ### a few hours ago.  please do not use the road until our crews remove it."

What I think is ironic is that so many here who say that an armed rebellion by millions of gun owners in this country can't work against such a modern army as ours tell me that we can't do anything against a few thousand insurgents with no real cover.   It is a frigging desert!  it doesn't even have many roads...  how the hell would a demoralized federal force begin to monitor the roads and bridges here in the states?  

What this teaches us is the lesson many of us have known since the founders... a government only rules by our allowing it to.

lazs

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 10:01:08 AM »
Google Earth Anyone?

     If I can see my car parked in front of my house, imagine what level of detail Big Brother can see!  How about R/C drone aircraft.  Maybe not every road, all the time, but as we need them?  Or....   What about those nifty automatically triggered cameras that take a picture of your license plate when you run a red-light on Roosevelt Blvd., or when you violate the EZ-pass lane?  Put them on motion sensors.  So what if you get a few pics of camels, or the the occasional trooper taking a leak.

     In this digital age where one can stream a Britney Spears video to a cell phone, I don't think it is out if the realm of possibility.  It is high time some of this technology that we use for entertainment can be implemented here.  Technology is everwhere.  

     I recently went on my honeymoon to Petit St. Vincent (far south in the Grenadines)  I am not kidding when I say it is tiny and remote.  About 2 - 3 sq. miles.  I took us 2 planes and a 45 min boat ride to get there.  It it only accessable by boat.  Look it up.  But.....  all of the staff had cell phones, I was able to get service (much to my chagrin, actually), and event the charter sailboat  had broadband internet access.  Technology permeates everywhere, even in the desert.  I'm sure that there is SOME possible way to use some of it to keep our troops safer.  Heck, lets put some of our acne prone squeakers,  or white collar hackers in prison to some good use.  Let them hack THEIR network for a change.  

     Next time they try to pull up data or sensitive material from us, fedd em' a Britney video. :aok

*edit*  Or, maybe, stop trying to keep Israel so "calm"  Let the Iraelis have a wack at them for a change.  I know that I, personally, wouldn't want to screw with them.  They have 12 year olds that could kick my *** in hand to hand.  I think its time to let the genie out of the bottle.  It is hard to argue with a nation that believes that their land was given to them by God.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 10:13:43 AM by VonMessa »
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Offline Rino

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 11:28:30 AM »
How about dropping buttons that say

I Heart Saddam!

Then on the Back you could add:

Get ready to meet him!

:D
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 11:34:35 AM by Rino »
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 12:50:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VonMessa
    Next time they try to pull up data or sensitive material from us, fedd em' a Britney video. :aok


:aok  And some thought Gitmo was tough.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline DYNAMITE

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Baiting Iraqis
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2007, 01:03:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
Nuke Islam.


nice :rolleyes:

Offline Angus

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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 01:06:15 PM »
But where is it???????
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline LEADPIG

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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 01:27:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

What I think is ironic is that so many here who say that an armed rebellion by millions of gun owners in this country can't work against such a modern army as ours tell me that we can't do anything against a few thousand insurgents with no real cover.   It is a frigging desert!  it doesn't even have many roads...  how the hell would a demoralized federal force begin to monitor the roads and bridges here in the states?  

What this teaches us is the lesson many of us have known since the founders... a government only rules by our allowing it to.

lazs


They do have cover Lasz. Everyday all day, untill they decide to expose themselves by a terrorist action. Believe me, an insurgent today, is the same guy that walked by an American soldier in normal streetclothes waved and acted friendly, then two minutes later picks up an AK-47 and sprays bullets at those same soldiers standing at that same checkpoint. Or the same guys that go and hide a bomb under a road, then act friendly and points and waves and tell soldiers to go down that road, after they have asked for directions. That's all they have over there, Lasz, is cover. We however stick out like a sore thumb. So, you won't notice them untill you catch them in the act. Untill then it's very hard for our soldiers to tell.

Ahkbar the insurgent looks like everybody else in a land of everybody else. The insurgents live on this ideal, they act on this ideal, they kill Americans everyday on this ideal, their anonymity. And a satelite looking down from space won't be able to tell you. It may identify a roadside bomb, but it's harder to identify a needle in a stack of needles when you don't know which one your looking for.

So it doesn't matter if they're in the desert,Lasz. When everyone over there is in the desert, including us, but they know who we are. It's much harder for the American soldier however, when his night vision goggles and his rifle don't have a setting on it that says "Terrorist". And the terrorist all look the same. It's just plain insidious.