Author Topic: Lesson in E Fighting (Read 2314 times)

BaldEagl · « **Reply #30 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:43:11 AM »

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Originally posted by mtnman
Since everything is carbon based, ...

Everything is not carbon based. Life forms, yes. Everything, no.

I was a chemistry major once upon a time.

33Vortex · « **Reply #31 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:51:32 AM »

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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I ask you, is the idiot the guy just having fun mixing it up, or the guy demanding that others fight the way he wants them to, and calling them idiots if they don't?

2bighorn · « **Reply #32 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:55:11 AM »

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Originally posted by mtnman
By your argument, classifying TnB as different than Bnz is also silly. Both use E-management, and for that matter identical flight manuevers. Does that make them identical styles / tactics?

Blah, topic was titled "lesson in E-fighting".

Styles are reserved for figure skating and such.

Air to air combat is all about ACM. ACM is plane/skill/situation dependent. Good pilots will do what it takes to win. They have preferences, some emphasize angles, some E management and some rely more on SA and/or TS, but that's about as far as I would go with the 'styles'. None of them will stubbornly stick to one trick. They'll adjust as needed.

33Vortex · « **Reply #33 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:08:30 PM »

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Originally posted by 2bighorn
None of them will stubbornly stick to one trick. They'll adjust as needed.

Within the performance limits of the a/c, of course.

hubsonfire · « **Reply #34 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:08:52 PM »

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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Styles are reserved for figure skating and such.

gatt · « **Reply #35 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:45:35 PM »

Cherrypicker? Was the CAP over that base the usual cloud of Spits and Nikis at 5K?

mtnman · « **Reply #36 on:** October 03, 2007, 01:20:35 PM »

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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Blah, topic was titled "lesson in E-fighting".

Styles are reserved for figure skating and such.

Air to air combat is all about ACM. ACM is plane/skill/situation dependent. Good pilots will do what it takes to win. They have preferences, some emphasize angles, some E management and some rely more on SA and/or TS, but that's about as far as I would go with the 'styles'. None of them will stubbornly stick to one trick. They'll adjust as needed.

And the response was based on your assumption that E-fighting doesn't exist. Now you want to direct me toward a topic you say is non-existent??

If your reply doesn't infer that "styles" exist in the game, I don't know what does, hehe.

What is style if not individual application of knowledge and technique?

Play this game long enough, and you'll begin to recognize opponents by the way they fight. If this isn't recognition of style, what is? If differences can be recognized, they're not identical, which means they can be grouped and classified. TnB, Bnz, and E-fighting are common classifications used...

MtnMan

HighGTrn · « **Reply #37 on:** October 03, 2007, 01:56:26 PM »

Wow! I never thought this post would generate such great discussion. Believe it or not, I troll this forum looking for posts like this all the time because it really does help my game (Lord knows I need it).

We have a new tour, new month, new scores and I have the opportunity for a new beginning. This month, I'm going to attempt to employ as much E tactics as possible. This is gonna take a lot of patience, deep understanding of the ship I'm using (in my case the Corsair) and understanding of the performance modeling of the ships I'm likely to encounter the most (La's, Ponies, Spits).

So far, its been working out alright. Every time I get shot down, I record it in a journal and try to analyze what happened. I was shocked after looking at several entries in my death journal because of what I discovered.

Here are the top 3 reasons HighGtrn gets shot down:

1. Blowing E/Alt advantage because a squaddie or someone is asking me for help. Yep, this is the number one reason I get killed (so far). Up on my perch, I look down and see a friendly in a sea of red trying to make a miracle happen. I get the call for help so I dive down, clear his tail, and then I'm in the sea of red. Will have to work on that one....

2. Taking off from a capped base. This is where I get primordial. The early TnB Homo Erectus in me sometimes can't resist a good old fashion... get off the ground and mix it up fight... After getting vulched, I quickly evolve to modern man.

3. Flying against the grain. I call employing inappropriate maneuvers against an opponent "flying against the grain". Quick example... I bounced a Zeke a couple days ago. He managed to get me on the deck and turning. I was using flaps and rudders in my Corsairs to barely stay behind his 3/9 line. He had turned my advantage into his advantage. While I still had enough E left, I hit the WEP, nosed up and barrell rolled opposite his direction of turn and was able to gain six again. Extend, roll opposite and position. I did this a couple of times and managed to keep my E up. I finally got him with a 70 degree, angle off rear quarter shot. He was almost stalling. I used a successful story here because most of the time when I "fly against the grain", I get my butt handed to me.

This game is so much fun. Too bad I can't do this stuff in my Piper Cub.

Great flying with you too Toonces.

HighGTrn

2bighorn · « **Reply #38 on:** October 03, 2007, 02:01:08 PM »

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Originally posted by mtnman
And the response was based on your assumption that E-fighting doesn't exist. Now you want to direct me toward a topic you say is non-existent??

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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.
Making E-fighting a special category is silly

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Originally posted by mtnman
If your reply doesn't infer that "styles" exist in the game, I don't know what does, hehe.
What is style if not individual application of knowledge and technique?

In military aviation distinctive features, execution and performance characteristics are not called styles.

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Originally posted by mtnman
TnB, Bnz, and E-fighting are common classifications used...

Describe each one of them with ACM terms and you'll see what I mean.

Now, if we stick to your 'styles', how is E-fighting distinctive to TnB and/or BnZ?

Let's say TnB is special category of air combat. Does E management applies or not?
If it doesn't, which maneuvers are used/performed in TnB fight and which in "E-fight"? What is different?

No matter your answers, I can safely repeat what I have said:"Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight. Making E-fighting a special category is silly".

Tiger · « **Reply #39 on:** October 03, 2007, 02:19:20 PM »

Holy technicalities batman....

HighG... you keep a journal on your AH sorties? Interesting concept. I'm not quite that devoted to this game, but very interesting indeed.

indy007 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:05:51 PM »

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Originally posted by HighGTrn
Every time I get shot down, I record it in a journal and try to analyze what happened. I was shocked after looking at several entries in my death journal because of what I discovered.
I never got this either. If you can beat a trained fighter then it should be easier to deal with a non trained one. Why do pple settle for the least threating person as proof of what they do "works?" Sure not everyone walking the street is a trained fighter but the ones who are more willing to fight tend to have some expereince behind them. Best be ready for that.

Hit your record button bro. Hit it frequently. The files are small anyways. That way when somebody does something that blows your mind, you can hop in their cockpit later and see how they did it. Much more useful than just taking notes!

Sloehand · « **Reply #41 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:11:42 PM »

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Originally posted by mtnman
And the response was based on your assumption that E-fighting doesn't exist. Now you want to direct me toward a topic you say is non-existent??

If your reply doesn't infer that "styles" exist in the game, I don't know what does, hehe.

What is style if not individual application of knowledge and technique?

Play this game long enough, and you'll begin to recognize opponents by the way they fight. If this isn't recognition of style, what is? If differences can be recognized, they're not identical, which means they can be grouped and classified. TnB, Bnz, and E-fighting are common classifications used...

MtnMan

I'd like to hear well-defined, comparative definitions of all the 'styles' MtnMan ascribes to (academic curiosity). I've seen some people agree with his catagorization of ACM in the past, and some not. Would be interested to see how one style is differentiated from the other in his prespective.

Murdr · « **Reply #42 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:40:27 PM »

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Originally posted by mtnman
Fact is, if you die in this game it's because you chose to. You made choices that got you killed. To cry about the results of your own choices is idiotic.

MtnMan

I find that overly simplistic in the context of the MA environment. Choices are made according to the known conditions at the time. Other players, friendlies, moreso than enemies, can make their own choices to completely invalidate the conditions upon which your choices were based. This can leave one in a situation where there are no viable options left to choose from.

You can try and argue a chain of choices all the way back to plane choice and loadout it the hanger, where a different choice may have avoided the situation, but it doesn't change the fact that somone elses ignorance or stupidity thrust the situation upon you.

If you want to apply that standard to yourself, knock yourself out, but don't expect to apply it to others without a backlash.

SteveBailey · « **Reply #43 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:58:38 PM »

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Originally posted by Murdr
I find that overly simplistic in the context of the MA environment.

No offense Mtnman but Murdr makes a good point here.

Sometimes, you simply get beaten... outflown. Happens to me enough to know when it happens. I do my share of crying on 200, but not when this happens.

MTN, Remember the other day when we had that wicked little scissors going on the deck at stall speed? You were in a -4 hog and I in my pony. You were simply better than me, despite my best efforts, and you shot me down. I don't know that I made a bad choice. I believe that you plain old beat me. It was dumb luck that I got a ditch out of it. My broken plane fluttered down from the 25 feet or so we were off the deck.

mtnman · « **Reply #44 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:09:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Murdr
I find that overly simplistic in the context of the MA environment. Choices are made according to the known conditions at the time. Other players, friendlies, moreso than enemies, can make their own choices to completely invalidate the conditions upon which your choices were based. This can leave one in a situation where there are no viable options left to choose from.

You can try and argue a chain of choices all the way back to plane choice and loadout it the hanger, where a different choice may have avoided the situation, but it doesn't change the fact that somone elses ignorance or stupidity thrust the situation upon you.

If you want to apply that standard to yourself, knock yourself out, but don't expect to apply it to others without a backlash.

Well, I do see almost everything as being a result of choices made. Some well thought out, and others less so. Some made with adequate information, but all with varying amounts of "mystery" or surprises.

Gamewise- Since nothing is mandatory, everything is by choice. Log in? Or not? Fly? Or drive? How much risk do you CHOOSE to take? Fly the front lines? Or 10 bases back where it's safe? Which plane do you choose? How do you fly it?

Surprises will occur, but you know that coming in. Nothing is forced upon you. You chose to be exactly where you are. Or was it mandated?

MtnMan