Author Topic: Are you Scared?  (Read 2452 times)

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Are you Scared?
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2007, 08:30:00 AM »
oo, oo, i want to play too, the librules calling bush "shrub",

this is a fun game. :D

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Are you Scared?
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2007, 08:34:40 AM »
How about a twig?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
Are you Scared?
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 08:49:24 AM »
When are you all going to wake up and realize they are robots!










Oh..and Soylent Green is people.

~AoM~

Offline Jackal1

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9092
Are you Scared?
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2007, 08:52:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
When are you all going to wake up and realize they are robots!


Then by gawd we should be demanding a Stepford wife in every house.........with a remote OFF switch.



 :D
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Are you Scared?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2007, 09:06:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Well if you are giving up on the society and country I understand the UK is a great respecter of civil liberties.

I'm not willing to give up on the country, this isn't the first time we have had problems with lousy politicians. I have a bit of faith that there will be a corection in the problem.


I have far from given up.  I exercise my right to vote, as well as prepare for the alternative to this situation we face.  Giving up and whining is a liberal option, and I am not a liberal.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline FrodeMk3

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2481
Are you Scared?
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2007, 09:26:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I don`t see a lot of good change coming to this country until people are willing to rock their own boat to get it done.
At this point way too much importance is placed on who is elected President and not near enough on other matters.
We have let the Presidency become not much more than a figurehead . That is a big problem in itself.
In that area about all that can be done is to go with the lesser of two evils at this stage until and if change comes.
We need pretty much a groundup overhaul. The people of this country need to remember that it is our country and the words public servant  is not just some catchy phrase.


I could notdisagree with you more, Jackal.

The Presidency has been expanding it's powers more and more since 1900, but has grown more rapidly since the end of WWII. If the Presidency was a mere figurehead, Things like NAFTA and Iraq would not have happened. There are some things that congress can still do to block Presidential decisions, yes, but most in both houses do not want to cross the party lines to do it. Or, they don't want to risk the money they take in from lobbyists.

Offline Jackal1

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9092
Are you Scared?
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2007, 09:42:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I could notdisagree with you more, Jackal.

The Presidency has been expanding it's powers more and more since 1900.


That is due to the powers that sway the direction in which this office leans has increased in power. Thus the figurehead.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Are you Scared?
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2007, 10:11:01 AM »
show me a democrat party that wants to decrease the size of government and cut taxes on everyone and cut government programs and defend the second amendment and arrest the employers of illegal aliens and....

supports school vouchers and I will vote for that party...  give me a democrat pres who will veto any bill that does not fit into the above and I will vote for him/it

That would not be any democrat I can think of.

It would not be any republican but they come a lot closer.  

The democrats and socialists are my enemy.. I hate them because they are what they are... they want power over me that is not their right.   Of course I can't work with them... there is nothing they want that doesn't take from me.

lazs

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Are you Scared?
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2007, 10:40:46 AM »
Quote
It would not be any republican but they come a lot closer.


Only for now. The crop fielded by the Republican party nationally reflects the true leanings of the party leadership. You could add a D in front of Rudy and an R in front of Hillary and from a platform position there would not be any real difference. Socialized medicine! What about the prescription drug deal under bush? Big government, DHS anyone?

Thompson strikes me as more a social conservative than a real conservative, and that is another big government area I have no desire to support. That's why I will waste a vote on Paul, even though I don't believe he is the end all or that he will win.

Here's how the calculation works.

The Republican party leadership knows that either Hillary or Obama will be polarizing enough for the lesser of two evils voting thing. Rudy is as much Democrat as republican, so he might just pull in some Democrats along the way. Certainly not as polarizing to Democrats as the H&O Railroad are to the Republicans. And, I don't think the current Republican party has a philosophical problem with Rudy's anti 2nd, anti 4th anti BORs views anyway.

As far as the 2nd is concerned, I see Rudy as as much if not a greater threat. An anti-2nd Republican president and a democratic congress will pass restrictive gun control more easily than a Democratic president even with a democratic congress, IMO. Why? The Republican members of Congress will resist H&O (whereas they might not with Rudy twisting their arms), and there are now more than a few conservative southern Democrats worried about their reelection options. Will Rudy Veto any gun control measure brought before him anymore than  H&O? I almost give Hillary more credit since as a cold, calculating politician she might be really smart about that and lock in MOR gun owners as Democrats for decades to come. It's not like gun control is a grass roots deal for Democrats anyway. It's an easy trade out.

And, regardless, the parties need to be taught that they are pushing the limits now. As long as their fear tactic of lesser of two evils is allowed to succeed, they will work towards a big nanny state where one day (soon, IMO) you will find even fewer differences between the Uniparty. Why should there be? By and large they all come from the same background, went to the same ivy league schools, take part in the same think tanks on how to best run the world (for the benefit of the elite class), thus have the same big lofty views on how to best manage, control and govern their child-like subjects. They have far more in common with each other than they do with us.  

As long as they can play us as well as they do, they will win.

I think Paul will have some appeal, even as a third party candidate, to both Democrats and Republicans. The boards I frequent show cross appeal. A double digit shift of votes away from the anointed ones will send a message, regardless who wins and might at least buy us some time.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 10:43:42 AM by Charon »

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Are you Scared?
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2007, 11:01:26 AM »
charon... only conservatives and republicans and individualists play the game you are going to.

The democrats don't vote enough third party to keep out their guy.   Democrats don't think like that.   freedom scares the crap out of em once you get past the freedom to abort or smoke pot or marry someone of your own gender.

The gun thing?   I am not sure if you are right but I suspect you are not.   I don't think even rudy would get toooo crazy.. not like osamabama or billary would.. they would encourage it.

Have you ever seen ruling democrats act restrained?  nope... they take getting into power as a sign that we want socialism... that we want more government and more taxes.   They simply can't help it.  

People like finestein have said that if she could get 51 votes she would tell American.... "turn em in... turn em all in."

Is she going to fight harder to destroy the second under rudy or billary?

The NRA thinks not... The NRA hates rudy.. for good reason... but... the worst of the republicans is 10 times better than the best of the democrats.

For now... it is like abortion and illegal aliens... they, none of em... want to talk about it..  They want to make phony health care schemes and cut and run war stuff the most important issues...

They want to stick a wet finger in the air and pull out the non issues to talk about so as not to anger this base or that.

lazs

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Are you Scared?
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2007, 11:23:01 AM »
Thank you very much, lazs, for proving my point.

You think Dubya hasn't let his position go to his head? He milked the whole 9/11 War on Terror situation for his pet project in Iraq. He exceeded Presidential authority in bypassing the courts to order wiretapping without warrants. Etc. etc. etc.

"Baa-aa-aa-aa-aa"
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Are you Scared?
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2007, 11:34:47 AM »
I don't know Lazs. I think that while you have extremes on both ends (fascist and Socialist leaners) there is a great middle ground that has as much trouble (Nationally) with a Feinstein as they would with a Buchannan. I don't think most Democratic voters are actually full born socialists. Certainly not the Southern Democrats or the ones I know, one of whom is going to Vote for Paul. A great many social liberals are still fiscally conservative. A good number are gun owners. Living in California can skew reality (as can living this close to Chicago or another big blue city). But, Democrats in the rest of the country are not all Hollywood liberals or blissninnys or on the Welfare rolls.

Paul has direct appeal to both social liberals and fiscal conservatives and non interventionists which, if anything, is even a stronger pull for Democrats vs Republicans. His strongest detractors on other boards are the neocon big government, must rule the world with our wisdom and power set. Not traditional conservatives or mainstream democrats. And these are gun boards by and large, though he seems to get good play on various liberal forums that have been linked. His just being different, and a not your typical political tool, has great appeal in itself. Enough to win... well, we'll see.

Quote
They take getting into power as a sign that we want socialism


That would depend on how many votes a third party candidate received. Give Paul 10 percent of the vote in spite of all of their efforts to marginalize his positions and it will be a shockwave in Washington. Regardless, I think they would take a win as simply the fact that they did a better job on the lesser of two evils thing and media manipulation.

On the other hand, since Rudy is hardly your typical Republican of days gone by, I do think a Rudy win would indicate that you can run a RINO and not worry too much about the social conservative faction or the small government true conservatives. It would still be a lesser of two evils win likely, but it would show that such a cross platform candidate will not cause undue harm.

Quote
The NRA thinks not... The NRA hates rudy.. for good reason... but... the worst of the republicans is 10 times better than the best of the democrats.


Not if you live in NY City, or the Chicago Burbs, where I have my NRA D and F rated Republican Federal Congressmen and state legislators. How's Arnold doing with the .50 ban and that microstamping bill? And just exactly what did the Bush administration do to roll back abusive gun laws? He did promise to sign an AWB if it was brought to him.

IMO we have to stop this crap now, even if it has short-term risk to our pet issues. Pet issues and single issue voting is, after all, how they make the current system of lesser of two evils work. And, it's become increasingly hard for me to ignore the other elements of the BOR, which are also stressed by the Republican party, just for a few often shallow words of support for the 2nd.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 11:40:03 AM by Charon »

Offline FrodeMk3

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2481
Are you Scared?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2007, 12:21:23 PM »
Origanally posted by Charon
Quote
IMO we have to stop this crap now, even if it has short-term risk to our pet issues. Pet issues and single issue voting is, after all, how they make the current system of lesser of two evils work. And, it's become increasingly hard for me to ignore the other elements of the BOR, which are also stressed by the Republican party, just for a few often shallow words of support for the 2nd.


The only thing, Charon, that I saw in your post that made me stop for a sec, was we.

"We" is going to have to take some definition. White middle-class America? Are they still the largest percentage of voters? Or is it the Latino-Chicano influence? Gun owners? Retiree's?

This is the only thing. Otherwise, I could'nt agree with you more.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Are you Scared?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2007, 12:54:04 PM »
Quote
"We" is going to have to take some definition. White middle-class America? Are they still the largest percentage of voters? Or is it the Latino-Chicano influence? Gun owners? Retiree's?


That's the potentially discouraging part. I THINK there are enough people from most sub groups (even those with different world views in general) that are just pissed at how things have been run lately. A majority? Enough to make a difference, perhaps.

Beyond just some generic wish for change and a belief that the system is broken, is a smaller government something most people understand and would support these days from either either party... I'm not so sure. Is it something that they can be educated on in the face of the obvious spin attacks and media support? Tough call. Thank god for the Internet, at least for as long as it's still allowed to disrupt the controlled Washington political and MSM machine.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 01:07:52 PM by Charon »

Offline RedTop

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5921
Are you Scared?
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2007, 04:22:10 PM »
Charon....

With all due respect sir......

Quote
That's why I will waste a vote on Paul, even though I don't believe he is the end all or that he will win.


Don't think that......Your vote...no matter who it is for is NEVER wasted. I understand your point...but....its not wasted...its' merley cast for who YOU...an american voting....thinks will do the better job or holds the stance you agree with.

A VOTE is NEVER wasted. When you vote you do the single most inportant thing and american can do.....you try to make a differance.
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles