Author Topic: Welsh Joke  (Read 2238 times)

Offline E25280

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Welsh Joke
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2007, 07:13:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Like I told you guys before ... it's ok to be angry .... just don't let it override reason. People "like me" (if you knew) aren't talking "huggy-kiss the enemy", sweetie, we're talking "cooler heads." Those are the kind that prevail.
But, the opponent in this case has shown absolutely no inkling of having a "cooler head" that could prevail.  Quite the contrary, they have shown every indication of a completely irrational hatred of you and everything you stand for.

Assuming you can "reason" with someone with a mentality of that sort is irrational if not delusional.

If you could keep such people at an arms distance and prevent them from harming you, that is one thing.  I am not sure that is possible.  So the only alternative is to get him before he gets you.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2007, 10:21:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Neubob
Ok, Arlo, let's try it this way...

Instead of discussing who's irrational, let me propose a hypothetical:

Let's say that you, Arlo, are in charge of this nation's resources. More powerful and autonomous than the president, you can pretty much cause anything to happen, within the limitations of this country's financial and military capacity, with just a word.

Now you're stuck in the same situaiton we're in right now. How do you handle it?

Tell me yours and I'll tell you mine (and it doesn't include a nuke).


Effective problem solving does *not* come from assuming you have all the answers and working from there. It comes from eliminating the wrong ones and going from there. So, I can tell you what I wouldn't do and if we can go from there ... that is, if you're really interested and don't still have your mind made up:

To deal with the problem you identify the problem. Not everything that looks like the problem, sounds like the problem, lives where the problem lives, worships the way the problem does, dresses like the problem .... the problem. Just the problem.

Optionally you can determine how it became a problem but that comes when you want to avoid the same problem later. You seperate the problem from what isn't the problem. Drive a wedge, if you will. Giving the entire religion of Islam a reason to not support your cause is *not* ... repeat ... *not* wise. Giving them a reason to help fight it is. Alienating, threatening and subjugating Middle Eastern people (this includes Jews btw) has never historically worked. Study history. Learn not to repeat what doesn't work and focus on repeating what does. If nothing ever has, work on a better plan.

With me so far? Whether you agree or not? :D

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2007, 10:23:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280
But, the opponent in this case has shown absolutely no inkling of having a "cooler head" that could prevail.  Quite the contrary, they have shown every indication of a completely irrational hatred of you and everything you stand for.

Assuming you can "reason" with someone with a mentality of that sort is irrational if not delusional.

If you could keep such people at an arms distance and prevent them from harming you, that is one thing.  I am not sure that is possible.  So the only alternative is to get him before he gets you.


Are you confusing "Muslim" with "terrorist?" Cause if you're not then you aren't part of the problem I'm talking about. :)

Offline Neubob

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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2007, 11:07:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Effective problem solving does *not* come from assuming you have all the answers and working from there. It comes from eliminating the wrong ones and going from there. So, I can tell you what I wouldn't do and if we can go from there ... that is, if you're really interested and don't still have your mind made up:

To deal with the problem you identify the problem. Not everything that looks like the problem, sounds like the problem, lives where the problem lives, worships the way the problem does, dresses like the problem .... the problem. Just the problem.

Optionally you can determine how it became a problem but that comes when you want to avoid the same problem later. You seperate the problem from what isn't the problem. Drive a wedge, if you will. Giving the entire religion of Islam a reason to not support your cause is *not* ... repeat ... *not* wise. Giving them a reason to help fight it is. Alienating, threatening and subjugating Middle Eastern people (this includes Jews btw) has never historically worked. Study history. Learn not to repeat what doesn't work and focus on repeating what does. If nothing ever has, work on a better plan.

With me so far? Whether you agree or not? :D


My concern in regards your approach is that is that this wedge you want to drive may well end up between a large group of non-combatant people and their very strict belief system. And this isn't just middle eastern in nature, as Muslims, both radical and moderate, are found everywhere today, and have found reason, everywhere today, to be furious. How you can drive a wedge between the people and this fury be it located in Afghanistan or Hoboken, I don't have the foggiest clue. I just don't know how you can undue hundreds of years of social conditioning, but I suspect that a few years of even the friendliest, kindest attempts at civility will not be enough.

Gain their support... Appeal to their humanity? That's a wonderful concept. Then again, without the west's thirst for petroleum, that entire region, with the exception of Israel, perhaps, would still be largely devoid of any signs of the modern world. Oil has brought prosperity there, and goodwill should technically exist, but paradoxically, the region's biggest customer--the US--still remains hated.  Yes, we do many things besides buy their oil, but buy it we do. A civilization that can so clearly attribute so much to a single source and yet continue to have such vehement contempt for that source just defies reason in my mind.

As far as subjugating, alienating and threatening... no, that is not what I would do. It does not work, and eats up too much effort and resource to even attempt. If anything, I would try to be less and less involved--but there again is the problem of Israel. Pull out of there and not only have we abandoned our only real ally in the region, but we've also appeased the worst of the worst elements there.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2007, 12:18:35 AM »
I like the turn our conversation is taking. At least there's dialog and some exchange of ideas.

I'm not advocating placating the terrorist. The terrorists are fanatics. I'm advocating not alienating the entire region which only leads to exactly what you're complaining about.

Not enough of the local population being willing to side with us against the terrorists. Too much of the population either apathetic about what the terrorists and insurgents are doing (to their own country as well as our men in uniform) or angered about how we're ineffectively (even counterproductively) handling the situation. It cannot all be blamed on them. Doing so just reflects a lazy and/or stubbornly prideful attitude that has nothing to be proud about and leaves no room to kick back and beech.

Yes, it does still involve winning the hearts and minds of the locals. Giving up on that, entirely, and becoming wreckless in the way we refuse to respect their culture (and equating everything about their culture as the source of terrorism) because we feel put upon, being unwilling to acknowledge our own part in the relational mess with the locals and further unwilling to redress the situation is destructive to *our own* cause as much as it is to the regional stability.

And no, Muslims everywhere are not rising up ... at least not yet. The majority doesn't support terrorism. Come visit my office (probably at least 40% of 800 people). But you seem to *want* to believe that. And finding an excuse to hate them all isn't unusual. Nazis did that to Jews. Jews to Christians. Christians to Jews, as well. Christians to Muslims, once already. I all worked really well before. ;)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 01:32:42 AM by Arlo »

Offline Neubob

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« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2007, 09:51:08 AM »
How can you respect somebody that doesn't respect you?

Did you read the article about the Muslim cemetery about to evict the already 350,000 buried people in London? It is but one example of the utter arrogance this religion is showing to the rest of the world. These are not fanatics. These are ordinary everyday people--probably much like those who work in your office--who think that the world owes them sympathy and privileges they do not afford the rest of us. This is the very definition of rising up. The gradual taking of inch after inch, with only increased anger and impatience with every obstacle they encounter.

And we're just supposed to sit back and be tolerant and empathetic because historically, resistance is met with bad results? Yes, the Jews had their fanatical period, thousands of years ago. The Christians at the beginning of the last millennium... Now it's the Muslims' turn--only today things happen faster, and with more severity. Weapons are more powerful. Populations greater--and their beliefs are as archaic and medieval as ever.

My first step would be to end this appeasement. They want a cemetery? Too bad. Make due with what you have. They get mad because of some depictions of Mohummad in a comic strip? Too bad. Being made fun of is part of modern existence. They want to riot over it? Use the hoses and the tear gas as you would to any other group of unruly protesters... Do not coddle them, because doing so is no different than silencing an overweight toddler with more icecream.

As far as making them allies... Just as difficult and worthwhile as it would be to try to subjugate them. They either play by the rules of the modern world, the modern society, or they get left behind. No more positive reinforcement of their whining, their complaining, their veiled threats--tendencies exhibited by most Muslims I've had the pleasure of speaking to, not just their Ak-toting cousins..

The next step would be to stop buying their oil. Buy it from Russia. Spend a trillion or so on new technology, and infrastructure to support it. Any way we can, and as quickly as possible. It's long overdue and worthwhile for reasons beyond the political...Cut the flow of Western money to Muslim countries down to a trickle, and then end it all-together. They've proven that they are not innovators. Not industrialists in the true sense of the word. They pump and sell, and spend and spend, and preach and preach. Pull the rug out from under this, and send their gleaming hubris back into the sand... If they complain about this, ignore them. If they start with the terrorism... Kill them.

I do not advocate genocide here. I simply advocate the end to all encouragement, both moral and financial. The Muslim world has done very little positive for us. They sell what comes out of their land. Beyond that, their value to the modern world is limited by their own archaic values. We do not pretend to like what they preach, so stop encouraging it.

Too many worthwhile people, ideas and policies are being compromised for the sake of treating this barbaric culture with the gentle, nurturing touch of political correctness. It is neither efficient nor rational. It is done out of fear and guilt, and it is time it ends.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 09:54:31 AM by Neubob »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2007, 10:01:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dichotomy

They've already changed my way of life and in that they have won.  Do you think that for one second that the fact that there have been no attacks since 9/11 is an accident?


Madrid ?
London ?

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2007, 02:48:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
How can you respect somebody that doesn't respect you?

(Followed by generalizations, individual incidents portrayed as reflective of the whole and rationalization to disrespect an entire culture or religion)



Respect starts with self. If you ain't got that then you don't have the tools required to respect anyone else. If you find an individual who expresses disrespect toward you and makes it evident, that's one thing. If you see an example of an individual or even a subset of a group that displays disrespect to another or subset and you decide that exuses your disrespecting the religion they misrepresent then that's all it is ... an excuse. So if it's all about respect, then represent. Example, please.

Offline Dichotomy

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« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2007, 03:08:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Madrid ?
London ?


fair point... I stand corrected
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Offline Neubob

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« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2007, 03:13:32 PM »
I asked you to come up with a solution to the conflict--if you had the power to do something, and thus far, all you've said was that we have to respect them. You then went on to accuse me of generalizing.

Well you know what, I think you're the one who generalizes. You generalize on the concept that all cultures deserve respect. You generalize on the concept that the value systems of aggressively-growing, self-defining groups of people cannot be detrimental to the overall well-being of humanity. You generalize that Islam is good, and that its existence and growth is not a threat--as any broad group of people cannot be--even though I have yet to seen one Christian or Jewish mob running around calling for the beheading of non-christians or Jews. In fact, I'm having trouble finding the smoking gun that is responsible for putting Islam into such a state of over-sensitivity. And oversensitive they are. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them to make me question the need to respect any of their values.

If you doubt me, just go ahead and publish some caricatures of their prophet in a european paper, along with your address. In fact, give me your paypal account and I'll give you $100 if you pull it off, regardless of the results... Scout's honor.

In the meantime you've offered no other solutions. You've read what I wrote and then wrote it off--even though beyond my generalizations, I outlined what most rational people would consider a healthy policy, both for the US as well as for the world as a whole.

But go ahead and continue to respect them. Get down on your knees and respect their history, their contributions to society, their enlightenment, their treatment of other religions, their technological and social innovations. Respect them until you're blue in the face.

In the meantime, I'll be waiting for your paypal account and proof that you published a funny drawing of a Muslim.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2007, 03:18:35 PM »
Just returned from several flights between countries.
Maybe you should play some muslim jokes on the airbase speakers, - those who get angry and start shouting should not board :D

Anyway, - seriously, you have only the muslim-related guys terrorizing the flightpaths as it is. Makes you think of them every time you board.

Makes me feel sorry for the majority of muslims that are just fine folks.

Makes me wonder though why this did catch up that way, - why not HINDU terrorists blowing up passenger aircraft in Pakistan, or CHRISTIAN terrorists blowing up airliners on the pilgrim flights to Mecca!!!

It seems to be the Muslims vs the world that way. Just like the hint of the old commies, - the goal was universal communism.

We never learn from history, - and the so called "muslim" terrorists have done a great mischief to the world. The main result is misery and a backfire....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2007, 04:15:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
I asked you to come up with a solution to the conflict--if you had the power to do something, and thus far, all you've said was that we have to respect them. You then went on to accuse me of generalizing.

Well you know what, I think you're the one who generalizes. You generalize on the concept that all cultures deserve respect. You generalize on the concept that the value systems of aggressively-growing, self-defining groups of people cannot be detrimental to the overall well-being of humanity. You generalize that Islam is good, and that its existence and growth is not a threat--as any broad group of people cannot be--even though I have yet to seen one Christian or Jewish mob running around calling for the beheading of non-christians or Jews. In fact, I'm having trouble finding the smoking gun that is responsible for putting Islam into such a state of over-sensitivity. And oversensitive they are. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them to make me question the need to respect any of their values.

If you doubt me, just go ahead and publish some caricatures of their prophet in a european paper, along with your address. In fact, give me your paypal account and I'll give you $100 if you pull it off, regardless of the results... Scout's honor.

In the meantime you've offered no other solutions. You've read what I wrote and then wrote it off--even though beyond my generalizations, I outlined what most rational people would consider a healthy policy, both for the US as well as for the world as a whole.

But go ahead and continue to respect them. Get down on your knees and respect their history, their contributions to society, their enlightenment, their treatment of other religions, their technological and social innovations. Respect them until you're blue in the face.

In the meantime, I'll be waiting for your paypal account and proof that you published a funny drawing of a Muslim.


Speaking of solutions, how is rationalizing your hate for Islam one? As much as you want to turn that around as further justification/rationalization, you haven't proven it's anything other than your excuse for doing so. :)

Offline Neubob

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« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2007, 05:19:54 PM »
My desire to see the end of our economic support of Islam has nothing to do with hatred. It's strictly practical. My desire to see our dependance on their oil come to an end has nothing to do with hatred. It's strictly practical. My unwillingness to afford them any more respect than they have afforded us has nothing to do with hatred. It's strictly practical.

Hatred is personal, irrational, and needs no justification. Whatever hatred I had I put away for the purpose of having a dialog with you.

Since you're not really participating in this dialog, or near-dialog, I'm just gonna go ahead and call it quits. If you decide to answer any of my questions with anything besides more questions, or present some ideas beyond analyzing the nature of my anger,  I'll be more than willing to try again.

Have a nice day.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2007, 05:30:14 PM »
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Originally posted by Neubob
My desire to see the end of our economic support of Islam has nothing to do with hatred. It's strictly practical.  


Economic support of Islam? How many spins you got on this? It just goes on and on.* (Though I do appreciate setting aside the rage declaration that was both the start and point of my exchange with you.)


*Please, tell me this is just a Colbert style satire thingie. :D

Offline Neubob

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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2007, 05:49:13 PM »
By asking that question, are you implying that the nations we pay for our oil are secular? Are you implying that ALL the functions and organs of their religion are not directly benefiting from the wealth we transfer to these nations in exchange for our oil?

Wait! I know what it must be! You're implying that buying trillions of dollars of goods from them and making their nations rich in no way filters down to all levels of Muslim society, from the non-violent to the violent!

You really really believe in absolving everyone who is not physically holding a gun to your head, don't you?