first plane

[GHO5T]

been in the training area and had alot of tips in the ma, been flying in the ma for about 4 days now, and ive been landing with 4 - 5 kills at a time, and doing pretty well in a spit 9... ive learnt alot

i absoutley love the spits..so much so when ive been back in a pony it just did not feel as good..i think im going to be sticking with the spits plus its a brittish plane..and im brittish too heheh

[Lusche]

Originally posted by humble
I'm probably in the minority but I feel that starting in the spit does more to limit progress then help. Most spit drivers are very ACM/E managment limited...

F6F/109F4/C205/Ki-61 are all great planes to learn on. I tend to prefer the F6F since it helps to evolve an understanding of flaps a bit more then the other 3. All 4 will "force" you to explore out of plane manuevering and the use of flaps/rudder to "saddle up".

My own philosophy behind recommending an "easy mode" ride like the Spit is:

A new player has to learn alot and is quickly overloaded even in a "simple" ride. Game interface, basic situational awareness, gameplay. Even most basic maneuvers are unknown, and getting hits on an enemy is no easy task. So it's probably better to put him in an comparatively easy and forgiving all round plane. Most Spitfires lend themselves to different combat styles as well, not limiting the player too much. Once he has gained some knowledge and some confidence in his abilities, he may switch to other, potentially more challenging, planes.

While I am very fond of the 109F, I wouldn't really recommend it to a new player because of it's sluggish high speed handling and weak armament. The latter being a possible source of frustration, and I would rather like to motivate new players. Nothing motivates better than a few kills. Learn the basics, then move on.

But like I said before: If a new player has already favourite plane for whatever reasons, he should go ahead and fly it, whether Spit, La-7, C.202 or 109F.

[Spatula]

Originally posted by GHO5T

ive been playing for a few days now, and ive been flying the p51d and the spit 9.. im finding im not flying the p51 that well at low alt..i loose to much E and get shot down to easy,

The spits are more forgiving down low and slow on the deck. But ultimately low and slow in any aircraft is real bad news and should be avoided if you want to get out in one piece. My point is, if you want to live, learn to always allow a contingency to get out. Be that as alt, speed, or other. Then you wont have to fall back on the slow-speed handling characteristics of any aircraft when you stuff up and are low and slow on the deck (eg bait). When you take this mindset, it liberates you from having to always fly aircraft which have good slow speed handling and opens the door to many aircraft like the P51, P47s, 190s and 109s etc etc.

Originally posted by GHO5T

should i fly the spit 9, or is there a better plane to start learning about the game alot more?

Spit 8 is pretty competitive in the MA. The Mk9 can be too. The N1k2 is also a good starting option.

Originally posted by GHO5T

and lastly should i turn of the stall limiter?

Absolutely. Just DONT. Turn it off and leave it off.

Also, all this talk of "turn ability" in purely absolute terms is total rubbish. So called 'bad turners' can turn with, or even out turn, any 'good turner' fighter if they keep their aircraft near their best corner velocity. Eg a P51 can turn competitively with a spit, provided you keep the turn speed toward the P51s corner velocity rather than the spits. In practice in a P51 this means turning at higher speeds. Using gravity (either up or down attitude) can help you moderate your speed and stay near your best corner velocity. Knowing how speed affects your turn abilities and your enemies, is key to winning any angles contest.

[humble]

Originally posted by Lusche
My own philosophy behind recommending an "easy mode" ride like the Spit is:

A new player has to learn alot and is quickly overloaded even in a "simple" ride. Game interface, basic situational awareness, gameplay. Even most basic maneuvers are unknown, and getting hits on an enemy is no easy task. So it's probably better to put him in an comparatively easy and forgiving all round plane. Most Spitfires lend themselves to different combat styles as well, not limiting the player too much. Once he has gained some knowledge and some confidence in his abilities, he may switch to other, potentially more challenging, planes.

While I am very fond of the 109F, I wouldn't really recommend it to a new player because of it's sluggish high speed handling and weak armament. The latter being a possible source of frustration, and I would rather like to motivate new players. Nothing motivates better than a few kills. Learn the basics, then move on.

But like I said before: If a new player has already favourite plane for whatever reasons, he should go ahead and fly it, whether Spit, La-7, C.202 or 109F.

Absolutely an argument with very valid points on both sides. While learning on a spit (or similiar) bird can certainly help someone thru some of the initial growing pains I think it creates some very real bad habits. Obviously if the "baby seal" is well coached early this might be minimized or eliminated however most spit dirvers (even good ones) are fairly deficient in overall ACM.

I'm far from the top of the heap in pure 1 on 1 fights but I'm also pretty well rounded. So putting me at a "solid 8" what I see is alot of guys who cant beat me in a ki-61 or D11 or 109E in any flavor of spit and a second subset who cant "win" but eventually the rubberband on my ride winds out and I'm in an endgame I dont have the power to win. Occasionly I'll eek it out but most of the time the fight ends when I stall in. Now there is a subset of "dueling aces" that are very good in a co-e angles fight and actually a bit less uber in a disimiliar plane variable E engagement. Most of the generally recognized "ubber sticks" dont even bother with the spit.

I left the hog and 38 out since I think they are darn near impossible to learn on. I see alot of spit drivers whose view of ACM (even if they dont know it) boils down entirely to I'm going to get my lift vector in front of you and work the throttle. Again the combination of good turn, good e retention, good acceleration and high AoA creates a wealth of early success against "average" opposition at the expense of developing a good "3D" view of ACM. I posted this way back on the here and on the 71st site. P-40b vs Nikki Here's aguy who pretty consistantly ranked in the top few hundred with no clue at all about ACM.

I'm certainly not going to argue the benifit of success to the learning curve or the reality that cutting your teeth on a midwar "jack of all trade" birds is more frustrating in the beginning. I used to tell the folks I worked with that if you give it 10 hours you'll be able to fight me or any trainer (or any DA ace) thru 30-45 seconds in any of the above. You'll hardly ever win (at that point) but you'll know stick, throttle, rudder and flaps and be able to judge angles, e state and 3 dimensional "angle off" well enough to "make a fight"...

I found that when that "baby seal" got turned lose on a spit and then came back 3 months later more then one was good enough I couldnt beat them spit to spit. If you can get a spit driver thinking in 3D the plane is deadly....again i found that it was easier to teach that in a plane that more or less demanded it to succeed and then let the "trainee" transform that knowledge to the spit....

Again just a "dissenting" view on the spitty as a favored training ride...

[KONG1]

This is a pretty good plane.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by humble
While learning on a spit (or similiar) bird can certainly help someone thru some of the initial growing pains I think it creates some very real bad habits...Again just a "dissenting" view on the spitty as a favored training ride...

I'd agree with this if you're talking about the Spit 5 and Spit 16.  Its maneuverability of the first, and almost all aspects of the second, will teach some bad habits.  A Spit 16 in particular is successful in the hands of an inexperienced, lesser-skilled MA Pilot as its performance will gloss over their lack of knowledge, piloting, situational awareness, or all three.  Other bad habits used by new guys are: over-dependence on firepower (Niki), over-dependence on speed (190D9/P-51D), or both (Typhoon/LA7).  But, the Spit 9 doesn't have overwhelming maneuverability, firepower, or speed--but it is good at all three.  That's why I think its a good starter.  Plus, you can fight low, fight high, e-fight, turn fight, etc.  Just a solid, all-around good plane for the MA.  Plus, its extreme pitch axis sensitivity teaches you how to be smooth and less ham-fisted, as it will perform beautifully within its envelope, but will perform a nasty snap roll when it get slow and you yank on the stick.  

I would encourage people to fly those planes they are in love with--that's why we play this game.  But, like my personal experience, those planes I was interested in take a bit more experience to be successful with in the MA.  So, learn the basics in the Spit, but fly what you want to fly as well occasionally, just to satisfy your desire to fly a P-38 for example.  At least until you can fly your dream ride in the MA without getting killed so often you get discouraged.

[toonces3]

I more or less agree with Stoney and Lusche.

You don't want to start the game getting frustrated.

Get up in a plane with a 'lighter' workload like a spit, get some kills, figure out SA and how the game works.  Once you get some time under your belt and the SA part becomes more natural, you can try a plane that requires more 'work' to fly well.

I can't imagine starting in a 109F.  I'd probably quit in frustration.

[humble]

Here's the flip side to that argument.

There have been significant studies that show a kind of "learned inertia" in all kinds of area's of skill development. Once you start down a given path your "range of learning" tends to decrease. A "big hitter" in golf learns all kinds of cute recovery, "flip wedge", sandplay etc...but cant work a 6 iron into the breeze to a tight pin. The short hitter often has a worse 65 yd and in game (suprisingly so) but actually can hit more greens from 135 to 220 and has better control of his ball flight.

Going back to the topic at hand, your meshing different skill sets. SA is totally unrelated to pilot workload. In fact pilot workload is equal across the board IMO. A 109F is no harder to fly then the spitty in that regard.

The difference is simple, a spit lends itself to 2 dimensional flying (and thinking). You watch most spit drivers and even when they are flying in 3D they are thinking in 2D. This is a state of mind, not a skill set.

It takes about 2 hours to teach someone the fundementals of 3D dogfighting...thats all. Now achieving a reasonable level of competence is probably about 100 hrs of combat time. The guy flying the spit normally gets stuck early in the learning curve since the "moves" that bring a minimum level of success are counter productive over the long run.

The counterpart to "grip, stance & posture" is "rudder, throttle & trim"...
build a good foundation and you have a better chance of playing to "scratch". Once learned, never forgotten...never learned early...always FUBAR. Again just my 2 cents...

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by humble
A "big hitter" in golf learns all kinds of cute recovery, "flip wedge", sandplay etc...but cant work a 6 iron into the breeze to a tight pin. The short hitter often has a worse 65 yd and in game (suprisingly so) but actually can hit more greens from 135 to 220 and has better control of his ball flight.

How do you classify Tiger then?