The failure of socialized medicine in Canada

[storch]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Doesn't help much if you are d-i-e-d during the appeal process because you couldn't get medicine and/or treatment.

here is the basic flaw in your thinking and the difference between our respective philosophies.

the first question is are you mortal?  if you are then you must be prepared to die.

would you spend any sum to extend your life for a short period?  if it were my money I would not.  if it were my son we were discussing I still would not.

life is finite, the problem is some people will go to any length and any expense of someone else's money in the absurd hope of extending life in a worn or faulty body.

be wise, have your affairs in order because eternity is just around any corner.

[lazs2]

milo.. well.. yes, of course there is.. you can look up the stats if you like.   there is a percentage.. that does not change the stats for other races tho.

torque...  canada is not the US.   you do not have near the illegals we do.  nor the negro addicts.   In order for us to have anything like your system it would cost at least twice as much.

How much do your doctors pay for malpractice insurance a year?   How many MRI machines per capita do you have?

lazs

[RTR]

Socialized health care a sham in Canada?  You bet it is.

Here's a short story (true btw).....

My son has some significant knee problems. They put him on the waiting list for an MRI here in Alberta. Told us it would be a minimum of a 3 month wait and possibly as long as six. However, if we would pay for it ousrelves it could be done within a week.

You see, it's not a shortage of MRI's etc that is the problem. It's a shortage of who the Provincial Government has a deal with.

Obviously we popped for the $1000.00 to get his knees looked at right away. We are fortunate, we could afford it, many are not.

He is now on a waiting list for surgery, anywhere from 4 months to a year we are told. Apparently there are only 2 Orthopedic Surgeons in Alberta.  We are free to take him to another Province (although the waiting list is the same), or the U.S. provided we pay all the cost. That we can't afford, so we wait.

I'm more than a little steamed.

RTR

[MiloMorai]

Move to Ontario then RTR. The nephew 'popped' his knee playing hockey and had his knee looked, at and fixed, with-in a month or so.

storch, might as well close all health care facilities, discontinue medical and medicine research and put doctors on the extinct list then.

lazs, not our problem that you let your society degenerate.

Canada has
8.1 CT machines per million population
1.7 MRI machines per million population

from an article dated 13 Jul 2005

The United States spends more on health care per capita than other industrialized nations but does not receive more services, according to a study published on Tuesday in the July/August issue of... Health Affairs, the Los Angeles Times reports. For the study -- led by Gerard Anderson, a health policy professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health -- researchers analyzed the health care costs of 30 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The study found:

    * The nations examined spend a median of $2,193 per capita on health care;

    * The United States spent $5,267 per capita for prescription drugs, hospital stays and physicians visits in 2002, compared with $3,446 per capita for Switzerland, the next highest spender;

    * Health care spending accounted for 14.6% of the U.S. gross domestic product in 2002, a time when only two other nations -- Switzerland and Germany -- spent more than 10% of their GDP on health care;

    * The United States has 2.9 hospital beds per 1,000 residents, compared with a median of 3.7 beds per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined;

    * The United States had 2.4 physicians per 1,000 residents in 2001, compared with a median of 3.1 physicians per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined in 2002;

    * The United States had 7.9 nurses per 1,000 residents in the United States in 2001, compared with a median of 8.9 nurses per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined in 2002;

    * The United States has 12.8 CT scanners per one million U.S. residents, compared with a median of 13.3 scanners per one million residents among the other nations examined;

    * The United States appears to have more magnetic resonance imaging machines per capita than many of the other nations examined, but the machines are used only 10 hours daily in the United States, compared with a median of 18 hours daily in other nations; and

    * The average medical malpractice payment, which included both settlements and judgments, was $265,103 in the United States in 2001, compared with $309,417 in Canada and $411,171 in Britain.

Anderson said, "We pay more for health care for the simple reason that prices for health services are significantly higher in the United States than they are elsewhere." Karen Davis -- president of the Commonwealth Fund, which supported the study -- said that the United States "does not get commensurate value for its health care dollar" (Girion, Los Angeles Times, 7/12).

[lazs2]

what?  isn't alberta a large sized city?  

We kinda have the reverse problem here... if you have insurance... they almost beg you to get expensive tests and surgeries..

lazs

[storch]

alberta is a western canadian province.  that would be similar to one of our states.  it borders montana

[storch]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
storch, might as well close all health care facilities, discontinue medical and medicine research and put doctors on the extinct list then.

why is that milo?

[lazs2]

well milo.. it seems pretty simple then..

All we got to do is make everyone get their MRI at 3 in the morning and... cut all the doctors and nurses salaries and... there we are.

you say that the malpractice suits average about the same.... what is the number of suits in each country?   If you only have one a year at 300k but we have thousands a month at 200k....

That is why I asked... what is the cost per year of malpractice insurance in canada?

What is the average wait for treatment?    What would drugs cost in the US if they did not need to be approved?

When my first wife broke her leg in BC.. we went to a hospital there (70 miles away) and seen some of those "beds"  they looked like something from a 1950's US hospital.

Point being.. we don't need socialized medicine... all we need to do is force our doctors and nurses to take a whole lot less money... crowd in a few extra beds per hospital room... don't allow as many lawsuits and...

junk two thirds of our equipment and run the rest 18 hours a day...

not to mention..  stop the FDA from testing drugs or having silly restrictions.

and why not?   that is what we would get anyway with your system.. why not just do those things and let eveyone enjoy the reduced insurance rates.... well...everyone but doctors, nurses and patients that is.

lazs

[bj229r]

link

United States and Canada: A Tale of Two Medicares
by Derek Hunter

In 1997, George Zeliotis, a Quebec citizen, learned that he needed hip-replacement surgery. But his troubles were just beginning.

As is standard in Canada for non-emergency surgery, Zeliotis was put on a waiting list behind everyone else in Quebec who needed the same procedure. When he learned that his wait would be a year and that he would have to endure the pain of an arthritic hip during that time, Zeliotis decided to pay for the surgery himself.

Then he made a disturbing discovery: He couldn’t pay for it himself. Canadian law forbids private payment for a covered medical service.

Since its inception, Canada’s Medicare has been the favorite model for single-payer healthcare among those who advocate socialized medicine in the United States. They tout that every Canadian is covered from cradle to grave and that all have equal access to the same level of care. The facts on the ground, however, are quite different.

While coverage is universal in Canada, most Americans would consider the Canadian system’s limits on access to care unacceptable. As Zeliotis discovered, access to care in Canada is determined by where one is on the waiting list — and there’s no getting around the waiting list. Private health insurance has long been illegal in Canada, as has been contracting with a doctor directly — that is, paying out of pocket — for medical services that are covered by Canada’s Medicare program.

Zeliotis teamed up with Jacques Chaoulli, a Montreal physician, to challenge legally the province of Quebec over the ban on private payment for medical services. After two defeats in lower courts, they took their appeal to the Canadian Supreme Court. On June 9, the doctor and his patient won a major victory. In the 4-3 decision, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote for the majority, "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care."

Most things in the US probably won't change too much when Hillary becomes president, but the above scenario will likely rear its head

[straffo]

7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by storch
why is that milo?

Because when your number is up, it is up.

That is the impression I got from you, so my statement.

lazs, that was an article from the USA.

Try Google if you want an answer to how much insurance costs.

Btw, supplying drugs to Americans is a thriving business in Canada.

What did it cost you for that broken leg?

Btw, I have heard horror stories of ppl (from Americans) requiring medical treatment to be shuffled of to a second hospital because they did not have medical insurance.

[storch]

not at all milo.  if a person has appendicitis for example he will receive treatment irrespective of ability to pay.  furthermore that person will receive the very best care available.  the same goes for any other illness.  my point is that we will all die and I would not use up my family's resources to extend life for say another year if that were the case.

[ghi]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
This deserved a thread on its own, (Thanks LePaul) due to the current events and discussion of "socialized medicine" in the U.S.  If we were on the Canadian system of today, where would we airlift our pregnant mothers to get the help they need? Mexico?

Canada's Expectant Moms Heading to U.S. to Deliver
"I'm a born-bred Canadian, as well as my daughter and son, and I'm ashamed," Jill Irvine told FOX News. Irvine's daughter, Carri Ash, is one of at least 40 mothers or their babies who've been airlifted from British Columbia to the U.S. this year because Canadian hospitals didn't have room for the preemies in their neonatal units.
"It's a big number and bigger than the previous capacity of the system to deal with it," said Adrian Dix, a British Columbia legislator, told FOXNews.com. "So when that happens, you can't have a waiting list for a mother having the baby. She just has the baby."

The mothers have been flown to hospitals in Seattle, Everett, Wash., and Spokane, Wash., to receive treatment, as well as hospitals in the neighboring province of Alberta, Dix said. Three mothers were airlifted in the first weekend of October alone, including Carri Ash.



story cont.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300939,00.html

U.S person--Discuss:

How much do you personally support a Canadian system of health care in the U.S.? (aka the "Hillary plan"  of 1994?)

Canadians--Discuss:

What has caused the systematic colllapse of your healthcare system?

that's cherry pkng stories, not relevant to compare the medical services of Canada and US,
 i'm imigrant in Canada, 2nd day after i landed legal ,in Toronto 9 years back, i went to gov.health care office recived healh card, thx God i didn't need it, i know lot of friends waiting long time for small surgery,
  look at most EU,Japan why don't they follow  the US,health care system if is better?
Try to imagine a recesion,stock market crash, with 30-40% unemployement,like we had in Romania in 1990 after comunism regim crashed,but hospitals still did the job, women still gave birth in hospitals , and peoples didn't die for a basic appendix crisis . And the way i see the global economy , that scenario is posible quick overnight, you can find yourself without job, without money and health insurance, and  what? should you die for a dissease curable 100 years ago ?
Don't take me wrong i'm not crying the socialist system, but healthy peoples with $$ in their poket,don't think about hospitals and health insurance,  untill they get sick,
  i read in United States are 45 milion peoples out of 300 milion population,without health insurance,without acces to health care services, i consider the canadian way not perfect, but overall  better,
Imagine an unemployed who just lost his job,without insurance cuz can't aford it,watching the Discovery Chanel, the new advances in medicine, but poor guy can die in anymoment for a basic appendicitis, curable 100 years ago,

[bj229r]

20 million, 30 million, 40 million, every few months the Dems increase the amount of people in the US who are said to have no insurance......if no insurance = death, then WHY are dozens upon dozens of hospitals near the Mejican border closing down due to losing money hand over fist?

No one at El Centro Regional was surprised. The public hospital is losing more than $1 million a year treating undocumented immigrants, many of whom were injured trying to cross the border -- people who've broken bones jumping from the 20-foot border fence in Calexico, nearly drowned trying to swim the All-American Canal, or become dehydrated in the Imperial Valley desert.

Neighboring Pioneers Memorial Hospital lost more than $500,000 on similar cases last year, not to mention unpaid ambulance service and physicians' fees. The two hospitals have to cover 150,000 people in a county that already has some of the highest unemployment and poverty rates in the country. "We're struggling to treat needy people, and the cost is bearing down on people least able to afford it," says Ted Fox, CEO of El Centro Regional.

link

Originally posted by Straffo
7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.

Why do socialists hate the 'rich' so much?

[crockett]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
So you're okay with the "parasite" system, aka welfare system of health care?

What you failed to realize is it's not like that everywhere in Canada. In big city sure there might be a wait. Guess what in the US in a big city at a busy hospital you are going to wait just the same.

You don't think hospitals in the US turn down people because they are full? Well guess what we do it too and we are on a paid non socialized system.

The only difference is, in Canada they have the choice to take the free health care, or pay for service if needed  for what ever reason. Here in the US, if you don't have insurance or can't pay then u go bankrupt paying ridiculous medical bills.

humm sure don't sound better than Canada's system to me. Not to mention even if you do have insurance here in the US, their main priority is to figure out how not to pay your claim or how to deny your treatment.