Where is the History?

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by zarkov

Multi-player on-line WWII flight simulations are a niche market.  The markets for geriatric porn, vomit porn and bestiality porn are probably bigger AND more profitable for the vendor.

Great idea...

Porn Stars High

Of course, folks would complain that HT over modeled the hooters.

[Hien]

Brings new meaning to...

"check 6!  You got a pony behind you!"

Now don't it?  

[Louis XVII]

Originally posted by VonKost
I’ve always wanted to see historic mission profiles and combats as a result of missions, not find and fight furballs. I guess I just don’t understand the logic of these arenas. Why not play quake if all you want to do is jump in and start shooting.  

My thoughts exactly, and the reason I don't play games like this any more. I can see what some of the guys here are saying - long hours of looking for "action" would drive most people away, but (and it's a very big but) you can only go so far in the other direction before arriving at quake-style gameplay. Scenarios might work, but you'd need to be on the right time zone. I never wanted to be playing scenarios at 4/5am in the morning.

A wise man once said on the board of one of the other games, at a time when people wanted super-realism, that WW2 was not fun, therefore the more REAL we make it, the further we'll get from FUN. But he also added that there was a limit to how far we could move away from REAL, before we stopped getting any nearer to FUN. And I think that's what you're seeing in AH. OK it's not a re-enactment of WWII (wasn't that what WW2OL tried to be?), it's just a game. Endless fighter v fighter furballs are about as far from WW2 as you could get, but does this make if more FUN? The fact that this thread got started at all tells me that at least some people think not.

[RATTFINK]

Originally posted by Bruv119
VonKost HTC are working on "Combat Tour"  which will pretty much involve everything you have suggested.

Yeah, I hear it'll be here in 2 weeks as well

[zarkov]

But he also added that there was a limit to how far we could move away from REAL, before we stopped getting any nearer to FUN. And I think that's what you're seeing in AH. OK it's not a re-enactment of WWII (wasn't that what WW2OL tried to be?), it's just a game.

You've got a point - as it stands, the actual GAME part of the game (the overall game or meta-game as opposed to the flight simulation portion) is pretty weak.

It's just too chaotic.  The designers would do well to look over at various generic wargames to see what they should be shooting for.  For FUN you want to have the action be compressed, have people be able to jump in and out of the game, etc. - but there still needs to be an overall structure to the whole experience.

Most of the thought in the game seems to have focused on the "playing pieces", i.e. the planes instead of considering how the pieces interact or what their goals are or should be.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by VonKost
This is the second online subscription Second World War in the air game that I’ve been a part of. I’ve enjoyed them both very much, but there is still much room for improvement. The problems I have had with both online games is the fact that there is no motivation to act in a historic manner.

I’ve always wanted to see historic mission profiles and combats as a result of missions, not find and fight furballs. I guess I just don’t understand the logic of these arenas. Why not play quake if all you want to do is jump in and start shooting. These games have so much more potential. Why not have a European map that represents spring 1944 in the air, make bases un-cappable and score points for bombs delivered on target. Make the bomber mission the focus of this ToD, maybe people will actually have to plan something, arrange escorts, fuel loads and map routes! The Luftwaffe side would have to use their air controllers to vector their interceptors to the raids. You would still get massive furballs, but you would get them for the right reasons.

You could include the 9th air force with their medium bombers and ground attack aircraft. You could even make it so there can be an invasion and ground capable bases after June 6th. Why can’t we design the plane sets to develop over time with improved models coming into service at certain dates.

Is no one interested in this kind of play? I think it is the most rewarding play you can have. Separating the machines from the methods is a mistake. I Guarantee that people will remember a historic bomber raid much more than the next furball at 500 feet.

In a former game I planned and lead a historic mission based on the 97th bomb groups first B-17 raid on occupied Europe. We flew a historic mission profile to Rouen and it took a couple of hours to complete, but it was totally intense and very much had the “you are there” feeling. About 5 miles from the IP turn we got jumped by a few 190’s and 109’s who were making slashing attacks and using good tactics. We lost a few bombers and got 1 fighter and maybe damaged another, but our forts brought us home missing some parts and guns. This mission is 100 times more memorable then when I upped for a furball and got a bunch of kills and landed 5 minutes later.

So I challenge you all, where is the history?

Regards,
VonKost

As any of the folks who know me can tell you, I'm a history junkie and then some.

If you can't find the history every time you fly, you aren't looking hard enough

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Guppy35
If you can't find the history every time you fly, you aren't looking hard enough

Give that forked tailed Fubar a cookie!!!!

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by toonces3
The absolute absence of participation in the AvA most nights speaks volumes about the desire of the community to fly in any way 'historically'.

Just my opinion.

Actually, it isn't just your opinion.

Many people want to fly their favorite plane.  All the time.

Many people want to fly with their squad mates.  All the time.

These two Great Truths throttle the historical combat arenas, of this game and of games of the past.

- oldman

[VonKost]

The excitement of flying long historic type missions is the ever present chance of a fight. The combat that happens in these types of mission is exponentially more intense because of what is invested to get there. Flying over the channel and into Holland and bouncing a fight of fighters or conversely getting bounced by 190's is a much greater experience then flying straight to a fight that is 10 miles away in a loose long string with everyone else in whatever the flavor of the month plane is.

The more real people involved, the more intense the game play is. We have all these wonderful aircraft, but we are doing them an injustice by playing the way we do. On the last Squad Ops Night I was having trouble getting my RPM setting to work and burning too much fuel. I was afraid of not making it back and my CO was coaching me through it. That whole situation was very intense and exciting. It could have been a chapter out of any of the dozens of WW2 biographies. These are the moments that make a game like this shine, not going out and killing 10 guys and augering like in the main arena.

I play for the glimpses and insights that are occasionally gleaned through these experiences, not for the constant nonsensical air battle over an un-named fictional splotch of airfield in one of the arenas.

(edited for spelling)

[Motherland]

Originally posted by VonKost
The excitement of flying long historic type missions is the ever present chance of a fight.  

To many, yes. To a lot of people (not including me), the FPS style, 'Go, kill people, die, rinse, repeat' mentality is more prevelant. Keep that in mind.

". Flying over the channel and into Holland and bouncing a fight of fighters or conversly getting bounced by 190's is a much greater experience then flying straight to a fight that is 10 miles away in a loose long string with everyone else in whatever the flavor of the month plane is. "
Theres nothing stopping you from doing that. Go on a strat mission, or hit an airfeild in a buff. 190's are among the favorite interceptors, Im sure you'll find more than one that will hop on you.

"These are the moments that make a game like this shine, not going out and killing 10 guys and augering like in the main arena."
Hmm. I usually dont just auger after 10 kills.

"I play for the glimpses and insights that are occasionally gleaned through thes experience, not for the constance nonsensical air battle over an un-named fictional sploch of airfield in one of the arena's."
Many have said before, and I will say again. The MA is practice for events. MA stick time is good for working on your ACM and SA. Doing events all the time will consist of 10-20 minutes (or, in the case of the Axis in DGS, and hour and a half) of flight time before finally getting to a fight. Fun as this may be, it is a gruellingly slow way to learn.

[pluck]

AH and Quake style are so far apart it shouldn't be used even as a vague reference.  the games are completely different, as are all FPS compared to AH.  There may be certain mentalities that are found in both, they are called dweebs.  Though I can appreciate someone wanting more of the style of gameplay they want, trying to change the whole game to what they specifically want, with everyone else as casualties, is a bit much...especially when considering the experience of the developer.

Enjoy the MA for what it is, a sandbox.  Enjoy the well designed planes.  Enjoy fighting other planes and hanging out with your friends.  This is what AH is about.  There are other options for other people in the form of events.

[999000]

Von I appreciate your passion and agree with much you've said ..... Howerver the TURN OFF in your premis is that.... if we don't share the same perspective "don't play the game " the way you would like to see it we are wrong. This is an "attitude" different than a 'perspective' that most of us would find  offensive. The your "right" and everybody else is "wrong' entitlement doesn't "fly" here.
999000

[Motherland]

Originally posted by pluck
AH and Quake style are so far apart it shouldn't be used even as a vague reference.  the games are completely different, as are all FPS compared to AH.

Its an 'FPS-style mentality', not an 'FPS-style'. I know what you mean, two completely different things.

[pluck]

Originally posted by Motherland
Its an 'FPS-style mentality', not an 'FPS-style'. I know what you mean, two completely different things.

ya, re-read that myself, and edit to reflect:)

[toonces3]

I certainly understand the OP's point of view.

I said it earlier, and will repeat again, the total lack or participation in the AvA arena tells me that most players are not interested in any type of 'historical' flying...whatever that is.

There is a whole arena with historical plane matchups, much better terrain, and other features like reduced radar, reduced vis range, etc.  Yet, it is constantly unpopulated (see the AvA forum for THAT discussion lol).

The crowd has spoken.  People want to quake it up in the MA.  And not just any MA, but the Late War MA.  

I've been poking my head around, trying to get a flavor of everything AH2 has to offer.  There's alot of fun to be had, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything other than mixing it up in the ACM sandbox.  If someone created a game of AH's calibre, but with ONLY an AvA type arena, or some other mechanism where friendlies were resticted to allied, enemy's restricted to axis, or something like that, I would be a subscriber there.

Right now, my primary joy of this game comes from flying with my squad.  If not for them, I'd probably already have left.  If/when my squad disbands someday, I doubt I'll stick around.  This is fun, but I don't see myself doing this 5 years from now like some of the old timers here.

To each their own.  

I am interested in seeing CT in 2 weeks though.