Author Topic: General Climate Discussion  (Read 82717 times)

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1470 on: April 04, 2008, 01:19:07 PM »
Well, in short:
"You should look at trends over a pretty long period and the trend of temperature globally is still very much indicative of warming."

Anyway, El Nino & La Nina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Nino

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Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1471 on: April 04, 2008, 01:22:16 PM »
Well, in short:
"You should look at trends over a pretty long period and the trend of temperature globally is still very much indicative of warming."

Anyway, El Nino & La Nina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Nino



"pretty long", but not so long that you see wild fluctuations in temperature long before humans were emitting co2.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1472 on: April 04, 2008, 01:38:03 PM »
Well, in short:
"You should look at trends over a pretty long period and the trend of temperature globally is still very much indicative of warming."

Anyway, El Nino & La Nina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Nino


and just how long are we talking200 or 500 years?1000 years? the industrial revolution is what most of use are concerned with, because, if there is man made global warming, then it had to be created in that time period !most testing and studies that i have seen show the air quality too be better than the mid 1800's (samples found in sealed containers).
 most people believe that floro carbons (i probably misspelled that) are the cause of man made global warming,yet in the time frame for that product the temp has not increased more than at any other period
(side note mars temp rises and falls just as ours does because of the sun or so nasa say's) and most climate specialist's were under the impression that the stuff we put into the air would actually cause cooling instead of heating hence the ice age theory after nuclear war(nuclear winter) up until the 1970's when global warming was first introduced as nothing more than a theory and pretty much debunked as totally backward thinking!
my personal opinion is that man made global warming does not exist! :devil
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1473 on: April 05, 2008, 01:55:08 AM »
and just how long are we talking200 or 500 years?1000 years? the industrial revolution is what most of use are concerned with, because, if there is man made global warming, then it had to be created in that time period !most testing and studies that i have seen show the air quality too be better than the mid 1800's (samples found in sealed containers).
 most people believe that floro carbons (i probably misspelled that) are the cause of man made global warming,yet in the time frame for that product the temp has not increased more than at any other period
(side note mars temp rises and falls just as ours does because of the sun or so nasa say's) and most climate specialist's were under the impression that the stuff we put into the air would actually cause cooling instead of heating hence the ice age theory after nuclear war(nuclear winter) up until the 1970's when global warming was first introduced as nothing more than a theory and pretty much debunked as totally backward thinking!
my personal opinion is that man made global warming does not exist! :devil

Whiskey, with all due respect... you are entitled to your opinion.  This opinion above has absolutely zero basis in any sort of fact whatsoever.  Fluorocarbons have nothing to do with global warming. (they were theorized to cool the atmosphere, but CO2 overpowered their effect)


Mars is warming due to an entirely different process. (a period of intense storms in the 90's uncovered darker sand which absorbs radiation (sunlight) better)
Quote
Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News

April 4, 2007
Temperatures on Mars have increased slightly over a 20-year period due to the action of Martian winds, scientists have found.

New research has shown that dusty tornadoes called dust devils and gusty winds have helped the surface of Mars become darker, allowing it to absorb more of the sun's rays.
RELATED
Dry Ice Storms May Pelt Martian Poles, Experts Say (December 19, 2005)
Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (February 28, 2007)
Mars Photo Gallery
Lori Fenton at the NASA Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, California, and colleagues used a computer model to study the effect that winds have had on Mars's climate.

During the 1970s Mars experienced several large wind storms that stirred up bright, shiny dust particles and redistributed them around the planet, the team explained.

In the 1980s and 1990s smaller-scale processes like dust devils tidied up the planet, the researchers said, pushing the bright dust aside to expose the darker rocks below


With all due respect... Please join a few others still confused in the reading room.
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Offline Excel1

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1474 on: April 05, 2008, 02:35:39 AM »
I'm not sure I want to be here when the poles shift again.
So much of our everyday life will be effected by such an event. navigation as we know it will be impossible. Anything that depends on the magnetic field will be affected. It'll be interesting, but not in a "hey this is cool" way :(

there is an upside to the magnetic poles doing a 180






Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1475 on: April 05, 2008, 04:38:47 AM »
Jee, what do we do if our AH maps go upside down!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1476 on: April 05, 2008, 07:28:15 AM »
Jee, what do we do if our AH maps go upside down!

From the trend I`ve seen recently................most wouldn`t notice. ;)
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1477 on: April 05, 2008, 07:29:57 AM »
Whiskey, with all due respect... you are entitled to your opinion.  This opinion above has absolutely zero basis in any sort of fact whatsoever.  Fluorocarbons have nothing to do with global warming. (they were theorized to cool the atmosphere, but CO2 overpowered their effect)


Mars is warming due to an entirely different process. (a period of intense storms in the 90's uncovered darker sand which absorbs radiation (sunlight) better)

With all due respect... Please join a few others still confused in the reading room.
ok your the guy i want to talk to, were is the evedince of man made global warming?I.E. last 150 years, as opposed to natural warming and cooling of the earth? what hard facts? and which doctors and scientist's have found these hard facts! why is it that the air is cleaner now than 150 years ago? why is it that mars temp can raise and or lower on its own, but the earth can only do so because of man made global warming? why is it that no one will report about the volcanic activity under the ice caps, and or what effect it is haveing? co 2 levels could easely be related to many natural causes such as polar melting.  i have read that not to long ago during testing that they found sections of ice that had way higher co-2 levels than at current, and as that ice melts the gas is released.
 i dont really think we can effect the changes that some seem to think. i dont mind you showing me the cold hard facts! if you really want to fix the problem that is what it will take, along with a general consensus from the world of science! not vinager, but honey!Question is: Can man affect global warming?
From the global record
Many prominent climate scientists say no. They say the idea of man changing the global climate is a fallacy and the promotion of the idea is a fraud.

Professors Carl Wunsch of MIT, Richard Lindzen also of MIT, Patrick Michaels of the University of Virginia and Syn-Ichi Akasofu of Arctic Research, find evidence that changes in Earth’s climate are affected far more by the sun than man’s activities.

  
 
The sun is huge; it has 99.8 percent of the mass of our solar system. Its mass is 330,000 times that of the Earth. Its diameter is 110 times that of the Earth. If the earth was the size of an orange, the sun would be the size of a two-story house. Its surface temperature is about 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit with its core at over 20 million degrees; an enormous fire ball with its sun spot activity changing and affecting Earth’s climate. It’s fair to say it dominates our solar system.

Consider what the sun does in a single day in the United States alone. The average daily temperature swing of a particular week in central Washington was about 18 degrees. Assume an average temperature increase of 10 degrees over the whole United States. That is an increase of 10 degrees over 3 million square miles.  Does all of our combined energy consumption in a single day raise the temperature over the whole United States? Would a man try to raise the atmospheric temperature around his house by opening his doors and windows and turning up the thermostat? The sun does it in hours.



CO2 is about half of one per cent of all green house gases. Water vapor is huge at 95 percent.

CO2 produced by natural processes on the earth, including the ocean, are very huge compared to the CO2 produced by people. It does not make sense that something very small can overwhelm something very large.

Is man’s attempt to alter global climate change like a man who would try to stop an 8,000 ton freight train by driving his car on to the track?

Maybe the global warming hype is like the Chicken Little story.  We should not be suckered into the fox den. Instead Al Gore could do like Chicken Little and carry an umbrella then he could calm down and feel safe.
Those are not my words i gave the source info.
 



« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:34:37 AM by WWhiskey »
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Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1478 on: April 05, 2008, 07:33:09 AM »
Whiskey there are such things as a proportionaly small chemical imbalance starting a domino-like cascade of gradualy larger consequences, like a sort of butterfly effect across many otherwise unrelated systems.

No one knows for sure.  All the resources being fed into either side of the campaigning should instead be put into researching the matter so that we'd know for sure.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1479 on: April 05, 2008, 07:36:49 AM »
Moot
 i agree but some do not,  they want to run around like chickens with there heads cut off ,wrecking our economy while they do it!
From The Earth TimesWASHINGTON, Sept. 12  /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A new analysis of peer-reviewed literature reveals that more than 500 scientists have published evidence refuting at least one element of current man-made global warming scares. More than 300 of the scientists found evidence that 1) a natural moderate 1,500-year climate cycle has produced more than a dozen global warmings similar to ours since the last Ice Age and/or that 2) our Modern Warming is linked strongly to variations in the sun's irradiance. "This data and the list of scientists make a mockery of recent claims that a scientific consensus blames humans as the primary cause of global temperature increases since 1850," said Hudson Institute Senior Fellow Dennis Avery.
Other researchers found evidence that 3) sea levels are failing to rise importantly; 4) that our storms and droughts are becoming fewer and milder with this warming as they did during previous global warmings; 5) that human deaths will be reduced with warming because cold kills twice as many people as heat; and 6) that corals, trees, birds, mammals, and butterflies are adapting well to the routine reality of changing climate.
Despite being published in such journals such as Science, Nature and Geophysical Review Letters, these scientists have gotten little media attention. "Not all of these researchers would describe themselves as global warming skeptics," said Avery, "but the evidence in their studies is there for all to see."
The names were compiled by Avery and climate physicist S. Fred Singer, the co-authors of the new book Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1,500 Years, mainly from the peer-reviewed studies cited in their book. The researchers' specialties include tree rings, sea levels, stalagmites, lichens, pollen, plankton, insects, public health, Chinese history and astrophysics.
"We have  had a Greenhouse Theory with no evidence to support it-except a moderate warming turned into a scare by computer models whose results have never been verified with real-world events," said co-author Singer. "On the other hand, we have compelling evidence of a real-world climate cycle averaging 1470 years (plus or minus 500) running through the last million years of history. The climate cycle has above all been moderate, and the trees, bears, birds, and humans have quietly adapted."
"Two thousand years of published human histories say that the warm periods were good for people," says Avery. "It was the harsh, unstable Dark Ages and Little Ice Age that brought bigger storms, untimely frost, widespread famine and plagues of disease."  "There may have been a consensus of guesses among climate model-builders," says Singer. "However, the models only reflect the warming, not its cause." He noted that about 70 percent of the earth's post-1850 warming came before 1940, and thus was probably not caused by human-emitted greenhouse gases. The net post-1940 warming totals only a tiny 0.2 degrees C.
The historic evidence of the natural cycle includes the 5000-year record of Nile floods, 1st-century Roman wine production in Britain, and thousands of museum paintings that portrayed sunnier skies during the Medieval Warming and more cloudiness during the Little Ice Age. The physical evidence comes from oxygen isotopes, beryllium ions, tiny sea and pollen fossils, and ancient tree rings. The evidence recovered from ice cores, sea and lake sediments, cave stalagmites and glaciers has been analyzed by electron microscopes, satellites, and computers. Temperatures during the Medieval Warming Period on California's Whitewing Mountain must have been 3.2 degrees warmer than today, says Constance Millar of the U.S. Forest Service, based on her study of seven species of relict trees that grew above today's tree line.
Singer emphasized, "Humans have known since the invention of the telescope that the earth's climate variations were linked to the sunspot cycle, but we had not understood how. Recent experiments have demonstrated that more or fewer cosmic rays hitting the earth create more or fewer of the low, cooling clouds that deflect solar heat back into space-amplifying small variations in the intensity of the sun.
Avery and Singer noted that there are hundreds of additional peer-reviewed studies that have found cycle evidence, and that they will publish additional researchers' names and studies. They also noted that their book was funded by Wallace O. Sellers, a Hudson board member, without any corporate contributions.
Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years is available from Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Global-Warming-Every-Years/dp/0742551172 /ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6773465-0779318?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189603742&sr=1-1
For more information, please contact Dennis Avery, Hudson Institute Senior Fellow and co-author of Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years, at 540-337-6354: Email: cgfi@hughes.net
Hudson Institute
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:47:04 AM by WWhiskey »
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Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1480 on: April 05, 2008, 09:35:57 AM »
whiskey.. the computer models and the handwringer socialists who program em can't (and won't) predict the climate for next year or the year after.  It has to be 50 years from now or longer so that they can get theirs before it all blows up in their faces.

The accuracy rate for "end of the world" scenarios over the last thousand years or so is..  zero frigging percent.

If these guys were around in 1900 they would have predicted that the horse crap in our streets would be 30 feet high by the year 2000 and that there would be the extinction of cows because of the buggy whip industry.

Just as we have gone to the moon from not even being able to go 50 feet in the air in 100 years and now travel at 40,000 feet for thousands of miles as a routine matter and get our entertainment and communications from satelites.. We probly won't be driving 1999 chevy luminas in 2100.   

But.. they will not use any less energy.. that is for the little folks.. and they will make their livelyhood out of the panic mongering.

Notice not much was said about global warming this winter and cool year?   they will ramp it up at the first heat wave anywhere in the world.. probly about june they will start trying to scare the poodle people.

We have enjoyed a wonderful (least I have) warm period of our natural climate cycles.. it has been a very productive and healthy thing.. many have missed the mild winters and summers because they were so scared  to go outside and enjoy..  too bad.. we are headed for a cooling cycle that won't be quite as pleasant.

I hope this warming cycle lasts a few more years but doubt it.

Moot..  certainly small amounts of a chemical can tip things but..  the C02 math does not add up.. at least 60% or more of the doubling effect.. the most potent part.. has happened..  the rest will have much less effect.. even the most rabid alarmists have backed off predictions they made even 5 years ago.



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Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1481 on: April 05, 2008, 09:42:29 AM »
I didn't mean CO2 specificaly.. I mean that such patterns are as likely to happen as any other, and that I doubt anyone knows what all the cogs are, that make global climate as a whole turn one way or another.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1482 on: April 05, 2008, 10:00:57 AM »
From Sepp Hasslberger
  shortened to fit

Climate chaos? Don't believe it
By Christopher Monckton, Sunday Telegraph


The Royal Society says there's a worldwide scientific consensus. It brands Apocalypse-deniers as paid lackeys of coal and oil corporations. I declare my interest: I once took the taxpayer's shilling and advised Margaret Thatcher, FRS, on scientific scams and scares. Alas, not a red cent from Exxon.

 the UN undervalued the sun's effects on historical and contemporary climate, slashed the natural greenhouse effect, overstated the past century's temperature increase, repealed a fundamental law of physics and tripled the man-made greenhouse effect.

 the UN implies that carbon dioxide ended the last four ice ages. It displays two 450,000-year graphs: a sawtooth curve of temperature and a sawtooth of airborne CO2 that's scaled to look similar. Usually, similar curves are superimposed for comparison. The UN didn't do that. If it had, the truth would have shown: the changes in temperature preceded the changes in CO2 levels.

Next, the UN abolished the medieval warm period (the global warming at the end of the First Millennium AD). In 1995, David Deming, a geoscientist at the University of Oklahoma, had written an article reconstructing 150 years of North American temperatures from borehole data. He later wrote: "With the publication of the article in Science, I gained significant credibility in the community of scientists working on climate change. They thought I was one of them, someone who would pervert science in the service of social and political causes. One of them let his guard down. A major person working in the area of climate change and global warming sent me an astonishing email that said: 'We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period.' "

So they did. The UN's second assessment report, in 1996, showed a 1,000-year graph demonstrating that temperature in the Middle Ages was warmer than today. But the 2001 report contained a new graph showing no medieval warm period. It wrongly concluded that the 20th century was the warmest for 1,000 years. The graph looked like an ice hockey-stick. The wrongly flat AD1000-AD1900 temperature line was the shaft: the uptick from 1900 to 2000 was the blade. Here's how they did it:

• They gave one technique for reconstructing pre-thermometer temperature 390 times more weight than any other (but didn't say so).
• The technique they overweighted was one which the UN's 1996 report had said was unsafe: measurement of tree-rings from bristlecone pines. Tree-rings are wider in warmer years, but pine-rings are also wider when there's more carbon dioxide in the air: it's plant food. This carbon dioxide fertilisation distorts the calculations.

• They said they had included 24 data sets going back to 1400. Without saying so, they left out the set showing the medieval warm period, tucking it into a folder marked "Censored Data".

• They used a computer model to draw the graph from the data, but scientists later found that the model almost always drew hockey-sticks even if they fed in random, electronic "red noise".



The large, full-colour "hockey-stick" was the key graph in the UN's 2001 report, and the only one to appear six times. The Canadian Government copied it to every household.
Four years passed before a leading scientific journal would publish the truth about the graph. Did the UN or the Canadian government apologise? Of course not. The UN still uses the graph in its publications.

The UN, echoed by Stern, says the graph isn't important. It is. Scores of scientific papers show that the medieval warm period was real, global and up to 3C warmer than now. Then, there were no glaciers in the tropical Andes: today they're there. There were Viking farms in Greenland: now they're under permafrost. There was little ice at the North Pole: a Chinese naval squadron sailed right round the Arctic in 1421 and found none.

The Antarctic, which holds 90 per cent of the world's ice and nearly all its 160,000 glaciers, has cooled and gained ice-mass in the past 30 years, reversing a 6,000-year melting trend. Data from 6,000 boreholes worldwide show global temperatures were higher in the Middle Ages than now. And the snows of Kilimanjaro are vanishing not because summit temperature is rising (it isn't) but because post-colonial deforestation has dried the air.

In some places it was also warmer than now in the Bronze Age and in Roman times. It wasn't CO2 that caused those warm periods. It was the sun. So the UN adjusted the maths and all but extinguished the sun's role in today's warming. Here's how:

• The UN dated its list of "forcings" (influences on temperature) from 1750, when the sun, and consequently air temperature, was almost as warm as now. But its start-date for the increase in world temperature was 1900, when the sun, and temperature, were much cooler.
• Every "forcing" produces "climate feedbacks" making temperature rise faster. For instance, as temperature rises in response to a forcing, the air carries more water vapour, the most important greenhouse gas; and polar ice melts, increasing heat absorption. Up goes the temperature again. The UN more than doubled the base forcings from greenhouse gases to allow for climate feedbacks. It didn't do the same for the base solar forcing.

Sami Solanki, a solar physicist, says that in the past half-century the sun has been warmer, for longer, than at any time in at least the past 11,400 years, contributing a base forcing equivalent to a quarter of the past century's warming. That's before adding climate feedbacks.

The UN expresses its heat-energy forcings in watts per square metre per second. It estimates that the sun caused just 0.3 watts of forcing since 1750. Begin in 1900 to match the temperature start-date, and the base solar forcing more than doubles to 0.7 watts. Multiply by 2.7, which the Royal Society suggests is the UN's current factor for climate feedbacks, and you get 1.9 watts – more than six times the UN's figure.

The entire 20th-century warming from all sources was below 2 watts. The sun could have caused just about all of it.

Next, the UN slashed the natural greenhouse effect by 40 per cent from 33C in the climate-physics textbooks to 20C, making the man-made additions appear bigger.

Then the UN chose the biggest 20th-century temperature increase it could find. Stern says: "As anticipated by scientists, global mean surface temperatures have risen over the past century." As anticipated? Only 30 years ago, scientists were anticipating a new Ice Age and writing books called The Cooling.

In the US, where weather records have been more reliable than elsewhere, 20th-century temperature went up by only 0.3C. AccuWeather, a worldwide meteorological service, reckons world temperature rose by 0.45C. The US National Climate Data Centre says 0.5C. Any advance on 0.5? The UN went for 0.6C, probably distorted by urban growth near many of the world's fast-disappearing temperature stations.

Even a 0.6C temperature rise wasn't enough. So the UN repealed a fundamental physical law. Buried in a sub-chapter in its 2001 report is a short but revealing section discussing "lambda": the crucial factor converting forcings to temperature. The UN said its climate models had found lambda near-invariant at 0.5C per watt of forcing.

You don't need computer models to "find" lambda. Its value is given by a century-old law, derived experimentally by a Slovenian professor and proved by his Austrian student (who later committed suicide when his scientific compatriots refused to believe in atoms). The Stefan-Boltzmann law, not mentioned once in the UN's 2001 report, is as central to the thermodynamics of climate as Einstein's later equation is to astrophysics. Like Einstein's, it relates energy to the square of the speed of light, but by reference to temperature rather than mass.

The bigger the value of lambda, the bigger the temperature increase the UN could predict. Using poor Ludwig Boltzmann's law, lambda's true value is just 0.22-0.3C per watt. In 2001, the UN effectively repealed the law, doubling lambda to 0.5C per watt. A recent paper by James Hansen says lambda should be 0.67, 0.75 or 1C: take your pick. Sir John Houghton, who chaired the UN's scientific assessment working group until recently, tells me it now puts lambda at 0.8C: that's 3C for a 3.7-watt doubling of airborne CO2. Most of the UN's computer models have used 1C. Stern implies 1.9C.

On the UN's figures, the entire greenhouse-gas forcing in the 20th century was 2 watts. Multiplying by the correct value of lambda gives a temperature increase of 0.44 to 0.6C, in line with observation. But using Stern's 1.9C per watt gives 3.8C. Where did 85 per cent of his imagined 20th-century warming go? As Professor Dick Lindzen of MIT pointed out in The Sunday Telegraph last week, the UK's Hadley Centre had the same problem, and solved it by dividing its modelled output by three to "predict" 20th-century temperature correctly.

Finally, the UN's predictions are founded not only on an exaggerated forcing-to-temperature conversion factor justified neither by observation nor by physical law, but also on an excessive rate of increase in airborne carbon dioxide. The true rate is 0.38 per cent year on year since records began in 1958. The models assume 1 per cent per annum, more than two and a half times too high. In 2001, the UN used these and other adjustments to predict a 21st-century temperature increase of 1.5 to 6C. Stern suggests up to 10C.

Why haven't air or sea temperatures turned out as the UN's models predicted? Because the science is bad, the "consensus" is wrong, and Herr Professor Ludwig Boltzmann, FRS, was as right about energy-to-temperature as he was about atoms.



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Offline MORAY37

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1483 on: April 05, 2008, 02:37:19 PM »
From Sepp Hasslberger
  shortened to fit

Climate chaos? Don't believe it
By Christopher Monckton, Sunday Telegraph


The Royal Society says there's a worldwide scientific consensus. It brands Apocalypse-deniers as paid lackeys of coal and oil corporations. I declare my interest: I once took the taxpayer's shilling and advised Margaret Thatcher, FRS, on scientific scams and scares. Alas, not a red cent from Exxon.



Ok...you are late to this party.  Do a little background on Monck.  His article is already debunked.  Read thoroughly and ask questions as needed.

Quote
Cuckoo Science
Filed under: Sun-earth connections Greenhouse gases Climate Science— gavin @ 7:55 AM - ()
Sometimes on Realclimate we discuss important scientific uncertainties, and sometimes we try and clarify some subtle point or context, but at other times, we have a little fun in pointing out some of the absurdities that occasionally pass for serious 'science' on the web and in the media. These pieces look scientific to the layperson (they have equations! references to 19th Century physicists!), but like cuckoo eggs in a nest, they are only designed to look real enough to fool onlookers and crowd out the real science. A cursory glance from anyone knowledgeable is usually enough to see that concepts are being mangled, logic is being thrown to the winds, and completetly unjustified conclusions are being drawn - but the tricks being used are sometimes a little subtle.

Two pieces that have recently drawn some attention fit this mould exactly. One by Christopher Monckton (a viscount, no less, with obviously too much time on his hands) which comes complete with supplematary 'calculations' using his own 'M' model of climate, and one on JunkScience.com ('What Watt is what'). Junk Science is a front end for Steve Milloy, long time tobacco, drug and oil industry lobbyist, and who has been a reliable source for these 'cuckoo science' pieces for years. Curiously enough, both pieces use some of the same sleight-of-hand to fool the unwary (coincidence?).

But never fear, RealClimate is here!

The two pieces both spend a lot of time discussing climate sensitivity but since they don't clearly say so upfront, it might not at first be obvious. (This is possibly because if you google the words 'climate sensitivity' you get very sensible discussions of the concept from Wikipedia, ourselves and the National Academies). We have often made the case here that equilibrium climate sensitivity is most likely to be around 0.75 +/- 0.25 C/(W/m2) (corresponding to about a 3°C rise for a doubling of CO2).

Both these pieces instead purport to show using 'common sense' arguments that climate sensitivity must be small (more like 0.2 W/m2, or less than 1°C for 2xCO2). Our previous posts should be enough to demonstrate that this can't be correct, but it worth seeing how they arithimetically manage to get these answers. To save you having to wade through it all, I'll give you the answer now: the clue is in the units of climate sensitivity - °C/(W/m2). Any temperature change (in °C) divided by any energy flux (in W/m2) will have the same unit and thus can be 'compared'. But unless you understand how radiative forcing is defined (it's actually quite specific), and why it's a useful diagnostic, these similar seeming values could be confusing. Which is presumably the point.

Readers need to be aware of at least two basic things. First off, an idealised 'black body' (which gives of radiation in a very uniform and predictable way as a function of temperature - encapsulated in the Stefan-Boltzmann equation) has a basic sensitivity (at Earth's radiating temperature) of about 0.27 °C/(W/m2). That is, a change in radiative forcing of about 4 W/m2 would give around 1°C warming. The second thing to know is that the Earth is not a black body! On the real planet, there are multitudes of feedbacks that affect other greenhouse components (ice alebdo, water vapour, clouds etc.) and so the true issue for climate sensitivity is what these feedbacks amount to.

So here's the first trick. Ignore all the feedbacks - then you will obviously get to a number that is close to the 'black body' calculation. Duh! Any calculation that lumps together water vapour and CO2 is effectively doing this (and if anyone is any doubt about whether water vapour is forcing or a feedback, I'd refer them to this older post).

As we explain in our glossary item, climatologists use the concept of radiative forcing and climate sensitivity because it provides a very robust predictive tool for knowing what model results will be, given a change of forcing. The climate sensitivity is an output of complex models (it is not decided ahead of time) and it doesn't help as much with the details of the response (i.e. regional patterns or changes in variance), but it's still quite useful for many broad brush responses. Empirically, we know that for a particular model, once you know its climate sensitivity you can easily predict how much it will warm or cool if you change one of the forcings (like CO2 or solar). We also know that the best definition of the forcing is the change in flux at the tropopause, and that the most predictable diagnostic is the global mean surface temperature anomaly. Thus it is natural to look at the real world and see whether there is evidence that it behaves in the same way (and it appears to, since model hindcasts of past changes match observations very well).

So for our next trick, try dividing energy fluxes at the surface by temperature changes at the surface. As is obvious, this isn't the same as the definition of climate sensitivity - it is in fact the same as the black body (no feedback case) discussed above - and so, again it's no surprise when the numbers come up as similar to the black body case.

But we are still not done! The next thing to conviently forget is that climate sensitivity is an equilibrium concept. It tells you the temperature that you get to eventually. In a transient situation (such as we have at present), there is a lag related to the slow warm up of the oceans, which implies that the temperature takes a number of decades to catch up with the forcings. This lag is associated with the planetary energy imbalance and the rise in ocean heat content. If you don't take that into account it will always make the observed 'sensitivity' smaller than it should be. Therefore if you take the observed warming (0.6°C) and divide by the estimated total forcings (~1.6 +/- 1W/m2) you get a number that is roughly half the one expected. You can even go one better - if you ignore the fact that there are negative forcings in the system as well (cheifly aerosols and land use changes), the forcing from all the warming effects is larger still (~2.6 W/m2), and so the implied sensitivity even smaller! Of course, you could take the imbalance (~0.33 +/- 0.23 W/m2 in a recent paper) into account and use the total net forcing, but that would give you something that includes 3°C for 2xCO2 in the error bars, and that wouldn't be useful, would it?

And finally, you can completely contradict all your prior working by implying that all the warming is due to solar forcing. Why is this contradictory? Because all of the above tricks work for solar forcings as well as greenhouse gas forcings. Either there are important feedbacks or there aren't. You can't have them for solar and not for greenhouse gases. Our best estimates of solar are that it is about 10 to 15% the magnitude of the greenhouse gas forcing over the 20th Century. Even if that is wrong by a factor of 2 (which is conceivable), it's still less than half of the GHG changes. And of course, when you look at the last 50 years, there are no trends in solar forcing at all. Maybe it's best not to mention that.

There you have it. The cuckoo has come in and displaced the whole field of climate science. Impressive, yes? Errrr…. not really.
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
-Ambrose Bierce

Offline wrag

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1484 on: April 05, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.