BOB pilots dint do much!!!!

[DREDIOCK]

Remember.
the writer of the article is not the same as the guy who did the study.

And would the article be viewed with such distain if not for the title of the article?

Seems to me it is written intentionally in a way that we here would lable the author of the article. a troll.

Take some facts. And present them in a way that people would take offence to.

Well done!

[Jackal1]

Chopper pilots in Nam were undertrained , unexperienced with low, low hours for the most part.
They are also some of the most awesome pilots on the face of the earth.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Angus
The BoB is always an interesting theme, now isn't it!
What stands unmentioned here is that the mighty LW lost some 1.200 aircraft together with crew in a timeframe of just a couple of months. It was their finest. The RAF lost what 800 aircraft or so, and some 400 pilots.
This is a remarkable feat, and the LW hardly ever had so much blood drained from them (if you also include quality, and relative size) in WW2 at all!
 

True but if memory serves correct. Alot of that ratio had to do with the fact that more then a few downed british pilots were able to either bail out safely over Briton. Or were rescued in the channel and able to re-up. Sometimes in the same day.

Where as more then a few of the german pilots who were shot down became POWS

Still the bravery of the Brit flyers is nothing less then  their heroic legend.



Either that or it simply proves that dweebfire pilots didnt need  skillz to get get kills in their EZ-Mode planes

[Dowding]

....and still no recognition to the Polish Squadrons that really got the shaft.

In what way?



"The RAF recognises 2440 British and 510 overseas pilots who flew at least one authorised operational sortie with an eligible unit of the Royal Air Force or Fleet Air Arm during the period 10 July to 31 October 1940. This group includes 139 Poles, 98 New Zealanders, 86 Canadians, 84 Czechoslovakians, 29 Belgians, 21 Australians, 20 South Africans, 13 French, 10 Irish, 7 Americans, a Jamaican, a Palestine Jew and a Southern Rhodesian."

They may have got shafted by the US and Britain after the war, but their sacrifice and contribution does not go unrecognised.

[Engine]

They really need to make a movie about that lone Jamaican flying with the RAF... "Cool 109 Runnings" or something similar.

[Angus]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
True but if memory serves correct. Alot of that ratio had to do with the fact that more then a few downed british pilots were able to either bail out safely over Briton. Or were rescued in the channel and able to re-up. Sometimes in the same day.

Where as more then a few of the german pilots who were shot down became POWS

Still the bravery of the Brit flyers is nothing less then  their heroic legend.



Either that or it simply proves that dweebfire pilots didnt need  skillz to get get kills in their EZ-Mode planes

Yes
The Brits would either die or return normally, while the LW on the registry would either die or become POW's.
And the numbers do not include LW aircraft that returned all shot-up with wounded + dead crew. If you go there, you're closer to 1.500 I suspect.
the famous S-African in the RAF, Malan, would deliberately leave LW aircraft to return all shot up with a wounded pilot/crew. It was also him that bagged Werner Mölders, who left and crashlanded, - wounded. It thereby put Mölders out of the BoB.

[thrila]

It's hard to argue against Dr. Cummings when it is just a few quotes from his book in that article.

However what is quoted is nothing new or ground breaking-

"Most Battle of Britain pilots were so badly trained they could not shoot straight, according to new research."  and  Many were no doubt, without figures of new pilots and experienced pilots i cannot argue for or against this.  It should be noted that although lots of inexperienced pilots were replacements for pilots during the BoB, it was also the inexperienced pilots who more much more likely to be shot down.  Hence making up the numbers by replacing inexperienced pilots with inexperienced pilots.  I would like to see this "new research" though.  

"Serious historians recognise that a lot of German bombers that were brought down were stragglers."   Well that was no surprise to anyone, probably even non serious historians.  It was the same with damaged allied bombers.

The only thing i do disagree with is
"that the RAF's performance against German fighters and bombers in late 1940 was "ineffectual"."

I do find this interesting,"kill/loss ratio" for the key air battle between 24 Aug 24 and September 6, 1940 was "unimpressive"."  anyone know what the records say?  For all i know it could have been a poor 2 weeks for the RAF.      Dr. Cummings definition of unimpressive could be up for debate too.

Regardless, i would read his book (from a library).  

Drediock, the RAF had no formal search and rescue service, the chances were you would drown if you ended up in the channel.  Several aces did just that IIRC.

[MajIssue]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Why so?

I think having a realistic point of view of what really happened leads you to have even more respect for the RAF pilots than you would if you believed the old school line. Think of what balls it would take as an 18 year who had 4 hours flight training to go up against the dreaded 109s of the Luftwaffe (who'd just rolled through half of europe).

Good point... I think that a good illistration would be: How well would a 2 week "spitdweeb" with only 4 hours in the MA do against a guy from "Das Muppetts" or "JG-11" or even the squad I fly with "False Prophits" one on one? Even in a large scale engagement he would be lucky to escape without leaving large parts of his airplane behind!

[cpxxx]

It just seems to be another part of the current revisionist trend among certain historians trying to give more credit to the Royal Navy. Apparently ignoring the reality that if the Luftwaffe had air superiority over the narrow English channel even the biggest battleship would last five minutes after the attentions of the Stukas.

It's a classic example of someone taking a few truths and using them to produce a conclusion which suits the opinion of the author. It's very common on this forum:lol

[Angus]

My great uncle sailed to England in April 1940 to join the RAF.
He passed all tests and went to the OTU.
He was already flying at the time of the BoB, along with many others.
His operational debute in a Spitfire was in the autumn of 1941!
His first sortie got him involved in a 1 vs 2 sit. with 2 109's where he got out with a lot of sweat after the 109's had forgotten themselves in a prolonged dogfight low and slow and got jumped by Spitties.

No 4 hours there I'm afraid.



As for the RN, it was a seriously great force, and as the LW concluded (IMHO rightly), there would be a need for almost absolute air superiocity for operation Sealion to be possible. LW was supposed to keep the RN off.
The four stages of the BoB premium to the landings were basically :(supposed to be)

1. crippling shippings in the channel
2. dealing with the defense and logistics system of the FC/RAF (radar)
3. driving the RAF fighters out or rather destroying them. (from adlertag)
4. Softening the ports of the home fleet (that would i.e. be Portsmouth)

Stage 5 was an attempt to subdue the British through bombing, which had the extra purpose of bringing up fighters en masse.

It failed. But the LW did go about sinking shipping in the channel, and as far as I remember, shipping had to be stopped or limited in daylight. So, already in July 1940, the LW was catching up on anti-shipping.
Although they didn't do so well over Dunquerque, they had their scores in other places like the Norwegian campaign.
So, for the RN having no RAF, it would have been one nasty situation.

[Neubob]

I don't see why any of you are getting upset.

Statistics aside, any concrete evidence of the RAF pilots' lack of preparation for this battle only adds to the significance of their accomplishments.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Thats kinda true though isn't it? Some of the pilots were kids with 4 hours training under their belts max? The Luftwaffe actually did reasonably well fighter vs fighter in the battle. Of course the RAF did better fighter vs bomber. And the RAF had a number of factors in their favour (fuel, bailing over friendly territory etc).

Yes the RAF pilots did put in a massive effort and put their butts on the line as the last line of britains defence. But they weren't super aces or anything as such.

I'd like to see the logbook of the RAF pilot who went into combat with 4 hours on Spits.

Johnny Johnson, who ended up with 38 kills is a good example of a late B of B newbie pilot.  He joined 616 Squadron at the end of August  He had 23 hours on Spits.

A friend of mine who joined 222 Squadron about the same time had 20 hours on Spits.

Was that complete training?  Nope, but they weren't thrown right in either as the squadrons would do what they could to get them time and train them in the squadron's tactics.

I have the logbook of a Canadian pilot who went through Spitfire training at 53 OTU before joining 416 Squadron in December 41, after the B of B by a year.   He went to his first operational squadron with 43 hours on Spits.

So basically training time was cut in half to get guys into the fight.

[Angus]

Originally posted by Neubob
I don't see why any of you are getting upset.

Statistics aside, any concrete evidence of the RAF pilots' lack of preparation for this battle only adds to the significance of their accomplishments.

Hehe, as well as giving a tribute to the chessplaying of Dowding and his commanders, notably Park IMHO.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by BBBB
Didn't you get the memo? Patriotism, is out dated. Pointing out your nations faults, looking at the mistakes that where made, rather than the end result is all the rage. Here in America it is no different. The Hollywood types would love to be able to claim they are anything other than American.

 Saying someone or a group of people are hero's is to hard to do. It is easier to point to their faults, or a countries faults. I mean hell look at the GI Joe movie. He is no longer a "Real American hero". Now he is a "Real, multi-national, hero". So rather than be labeled American, the Holly Wood types separate themselves from America as much as they can.

 The problem is, being patriotic is a counter-culture. It goes against the media. I watch the Military channel all the time, and there is always some ****** who never served a day in his life in the military, talking out there ass, as if their untrained opinion means something.

 I wouldn't get worked up over something the media, or some "historian" says. They are all talking heads, they all have opinions that they think matter. They get paid to talk about things for a living. The people in the know, get paid to do things for a living. You have to be able to separate the rock stars from the groupies. Historians, fall into the groupie category. In short, don't sweat it.

And here I thought gross overreaction was the trend for many as of late. At least, by your final paragraph, I see you're attempting to fight it.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Dowding
In what way?



"The RAF recognises 2440 British and 510 overseas pilots who flew at least one authorised operational sortie with an eligible unit of the Royal Air Force or Fleet Air Arm during the period 10 July to 31 October 1940. This group includes 139 Poles, 98 New Zealanders, 86 Canadians, 84 Czechoslovakians, 29 Belgians, 21 Australians, 20 South Africans, 13 French, 10 Irish, 7 Americans, a Jamaican, a Palestine Jew and a Southern Rhodesian."

They may have got shafted by the US and Britain after the war, but their sacrifice and contribution does not go unrecognised.

Memorials?   How about not even being invited to the Victory Parade in 1946 for starters.   The 303 Squadron had the most kills of ANY RAF squadron in the BoB.   Noone ever mentions it.      

No need to even touch on how they were treated at Monte Cassino, or how they were sold out by both Roosevelt and Churchill.  

Your last sentence pretty much negates your post Dowding.   No "memorial" is worth what happened to them.