Author Topic: BOB pilots dint do much!!!!  (Read 2410 times)

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9891
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2007, 03:32:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
The only thing i do disagree with is
"that the RAF's performance against German fighters and bombers in late 1940 was "ineffectual"."

I do find this interesting,"kill/loss ratio" for the key air battle between 24 Aug 24 and September 6, 1940 was "unimpressive"."  anyone know what the records say?  For all i know it could have been a poor 2 weeks for the RAF.      Dr. Cummings definition of unimpressive could be up for debate too.


If you go fighter vs fighter the kill/loss ratio favours the LW. If you take bombers into account it favours the RAF.

Offline FrodeMk3

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2481
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2007, 04:31:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
If you go fighter vs fighter the kill/loss ratio favours the LW. If you take bombers into account it favours the RAF.


You need to consider aircraft destroyed on the ground in the initial waves' of airfield attacks with that figure-Not every plane the RAF had left the ground, either due to a shortage of pilots, or because of maintenance. I'd like to see the number of Air-to-air kills, in that regard.

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2007, 04:52:29 PM »
Sorry, I didn't read the rest of the posts but I knew a pilot named BOB (not neubob... get it... knew Bob... neubob).  He dint do much.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2007, 05:08:44 PM »
Quote
Memorials? How about not even being invited to the Victory Parade in 1946 for starters. The 303 Squadron had the most kills of ANY RAF squadron in the BoB. Noone ever mentions it.


I'm not sure how you would want it 'mentioned'. I mean, do you have a certain percentage threshold on how often it should be 'mentioned' when discussing the BoB? Perhaps you think it should be 'mentioned' in every reference to the BoB?

Quote
How about not even being invited to the Victory Parade in 1946 for starters.


A purely political decision based on keeping Moscow sweet. 303 squadron was invited, but declined because the rest of the Polish contingent was excluded. Poland had long since been sold down the river, its forces supposedly should have paraded in Moscow, which brings us onto the next point.

Quote
...or how they were sold out by both Roosevelt and Churchill.


It was Churchill that was pressing for autonomy for the Polish nation, certainly not Roosevelt. Roosevelt allowed the Polish government in exile to be dissolved, in a misplaced fear of what Stalin would do and was capable of doing. Churchill even pushed for the US to join the UK in attack on the Soviets, but this was ruled out.

By the time of Potsdam, Britain was marginalised as one of the Big Three. The change of PM in Britain to Atlee, sealed that. Truman had no truck with any British desire to guarantee Polish freedom.

In hindsight, it is easy to condemn the Allies for what they did. It was a betrayal; but given the 6 years of war that was coming to an end, given the ambiguous and exaggerated estimation of Stalin's forces and his frame of mind, would you condemn another generation to another conflict, one that might see widespread usage of atomic weapons? I suspect you would not.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »
Actually again if meory serves correct.
didnt the German pretty much have the Brits on the ropes but in effect let them off by ceasing the attacks on the airfeilds in favor of the cities?
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2007, 05:39:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Actually again if memory serves correct, didn't the Germans pretty much have the Brits on the ropes but, in effect, let them off by ceasing the attacks on the airfields in favor of the cities?


I'd phrase it more like "Germany screwed up when Hitler became enraged over a strike on Berlin and redirected his air resources to concentrate on London to punish the British for the insult." Sounds less benevolent or humanitarian in nature and more like what it was. Other than that, I believe you're right.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2007, 05:54:13 PM »
The Germans certainly had the south of England on the ropes when they switched to London. However, they were breathing heavily themselves, and were mostly dealing with 11th group, with some squadrons of 10th and then the 12th when they went further inland.
(Therefore it took them by surprize that the Brits were ready, and armed to their teeth when attacked sideways from Fink's group. Since the German flight was over the North Sea, it was too far for 109 escort. but the mighty 110 was the escort. Anyway, they were met by Spitfires over sea and forced to drop and run home over water with quite some losses. The effort was not repeated)
So, basically the LW was tackling Park with his 111th group. On one fine day in September the LW upped some 1000+ aircraft of which some 600 were 109's. They were tackled by some 200+ of the RAF. (7/9/40?). A few days later (13th?) they repeated the show, and then finally on the 15th that now is called the BoB day.
On the 15th they were assembling on London, and since it was rather well known that this would be the case, 12th group with it's big and cumbersome wings made good contact.
LW went home with a bloody nose and was more baffled than ever that the RAF seemed to be growing. They never knew the truth which was simply that they were managing better to get more aircraft into the fray.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2007, 06:02:24 PM »
I love the movie "Battle of Britain." :)

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2007, 06:05:24 PM »
Watched it recently. What a job for it's time! :aok
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2007, 06:19:55 PM »
Hitler did not force the Luftwaffe to change targets to London. On the contrary, the war diary of the Wehrmacht High Command blames the failure to gain air superiority on the delay in permission to attack London:

"When the air fleet intended to go over to a large scale attack on London, the permission for such action could at first not be obtained but was given only after repeated urgent requests"

They then complained the weather had turned against them, robbing them of victory.

The truth is elements in the Luftwaffe had wanted to begin the BoB with an all out attack on London. They thought a large air battle would give the 109s the advantage, and after the RAF had been defeated in the air, they would be free to bomb their airfields with impunity. After the mauling they got in August (8% bomber losses), one of the 2 main air fleets was switched to night attacks, and it's fighters stripped to provide increased escorts for the other air fleet.

Even with that step, Luftwaffe strength was bleeding away. They had begun with 1,126 Bf 109 pilots at the end of June, 906 of them fit for duty.

By the end of September, even with the decrease in losses following the switch to London, they had 917 109 pilots, only 676 fit for duty.

In contrast, the RAF had 1,200 fighter pilots at the end of June. The figure is overstated because it includes Blenheim, Defiant and Gladiator pilots, and probably air gunners as well. However, by 7th September, the day the Luftwaffe switched to London, the RAF had 1,381 fighter pilots, an increase over the start of the battle. The following graph illustrates the trend, although it's mistakenly labelled single engined fighter pilots, it includes twin and obsolete types for the RAF:


In terms of aircraft, RAF frontline strength increased throughout the battle, and reserves were never exhausted. The Luftwaffe suffered a shortage of aircraft almost from the start, production unable to keep up with losses:


The Germans greatly overestimated their victories (about 3 to 1) and underestimated British production. For that reason, whilst they knew their own strength was declining, they thought British strength was declining faster. At times they believed the RAF had less than 200 Spitfires and Hurricanes left, whereas the true figure never went below 700.

The British overestimated their victories by about 1.5 times. However, they overestimated Luftwaffe strength and reserves, and hugely overestimated German production. That's why, in the brief period losses outstripped production, they thought they were losing. They believed the Germans were getting stronger, when they were actually getting much weaker.

Offline Entr0py

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2007, 06:39:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Engine
They really need to make a movie about that lone Jamaican flying with the RAF... "Cool 109 Runnings" or something similar.


I'd watch it
I'm too wack for a sig. (Camaro, not just a car, it's a lifestyle.)

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2007, 06:52:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Hitler did not force the Luftwaffe to change targets to London.


Damn that BOB movie! I feel used! ;)

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2007, 02:47:38 AM »
Well, the effect of switching to London was indeed quite some. It gave the plotters some more time, some 20 minutes, so there finally was enough time to get the big wings into the fray. I can imagine the frustration of the LW pilots who had been told over and again that they were after the last 50 Spitfires, when they suddenly started seeing them in swarms up to a 100 - "SCHEISSE"!!!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Obie303

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1775
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2007, 10:58:10 AM »
Dowding, I'm not ignoring the fact that the Poles have a war memorial.  It was actually constructed by the Poles in 1948.  The political atmosphere after the war definately was a contributing factor to how many of the Polish veterans were treated.  Some were arrested and detained for years when they returned to a Communist Poland.  

Here's a link on the Polish War Memorial.  

http://www.nothingtoseehere.net/2006/10/polish_war_memorial.html

As to describe the Poles as being betrayed, again the political climate was again the deciding factor.  The allies needed Stalin.  A fantastic book with many historical facts can be found here,

http://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/1333/Kosciuszko%20S.htm

In closing, there were many "forgotten heros" during the BoB.  I would prefer to remember their sacrifice, dedication, and honor rather than focusing on who deserves more credit.  They are all heros and they should be never forgotten.


Obie
I have fought a good fight,
I have finished my course,
I have kept the faith.
(quote on a Polish pilot's grave marker in Nottinghamshire, England)

71 (Eagle) Squadron

Offline Thruster

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 500
BOB pilots dint do much!!!!
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2007, 12:02:52 PM »
Here's the thing.

It's apparently a very thin line that separates measured, responsible, and logical consideration of history from treason. The idea that somehow because one is born in a certain place requires them to deem that place holy (patriotism to some) is to me at least, very un-American.

This does not by any means suggest that an immeasurable degree of honor and respect must be bestowed upon those mostly very young people that took up arms with noble hearts to defend what they held dear. Whether they survived the maelstrom or not They are all to be counted as heroes.

That being said, I find it odd that many tend towards repeating what they are told without the inclination to use the priceless gift of experience to help chart a more prosperous course during future challenges.

WW2 was a product of monumental arrogance, selfishness and hubris. The most powerful nations on the planet allowed a drug addled, uneducated, pauper who evidently possessed the sole gift of being able to work a room to hold the civilized world hostage for the better part of a decade. A known bald faced  liar who with a little help from his "friends" time and again made fools of those we deify today.

It was won (or lost) by numbers, and not just the body count. It could be said that Hitler had the war soundly lost the moment he decided to engage Britain, probably even earlier.

Back to the BoB. I wasn't there. I only have the benefit of what I've learned. From what I can surmise, even the British knew they were not up to the task of fighting off Germany. They well understood the facts and the odds, and were understandably very alarmed.

Were it not for the timely deployment of radar and the irresponsible fashion in which Hitler directed his assets, only God knows where we'd be today.
Though they certainly contributed, the BoB was not won by a couple of hundred out gunned, quickly deployed, YOUNG men's cockpit performance.

That's why for the most part the nations of the world preach eternal vigilance. It would be a crime to allow a future conflagration to erupt after we saw how close you can come to defeat by not keeping your blade sharp.

The idea that the R.A.F managed to violate every principle of military readiness (short training cycles, poor provisioning and logistics, last war tactics) and still managed to field a deadlier fighting force than they were confronted with just insults those who labor at honing their skills in order to effectively contribute to the defense of their nation.
God that was a long sentence. Sorry.

Just my $.02