The waterboarding controversy

[midnight Target]

IF IT'S WRONG WE SHOULDN'T DO IT.








Sheesh, that was simple.

[Auger]

The problem with torture is that it seldom produces results that are useful.  Just because the interrogator thinks he knows the suspect knows what he wants doesn't make it so.  The one being tortured will make up a story if he doesn't have what the interrogator wants just to make it stop.  As long as the suspect is consistent during successive "interrogations" the story, no matter how contrived, will be believed.  Then some other poor sap who probably has nothing at all to do with the situation gets to go through hell.

Torture is even worse when applied to criminal cases.  False confessions tend to be the result, but we don't often hear how the confession was obtained.  Someone paid for the crime, making society as a whole feel safer.  We are now less safe.  The perpetrator is still out there, looking for the next opportunity.  But as we have are a society of appearances, all is well.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by crockett
If we fail to lead by example, why will anyone else feel the need to not torture our soldiers?  

Do you seriously believe that any positive example we lead will affect the way that terrorists behave?

Pass some of what you're smoking....

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Auger
Torture is even worse when applied to criminal cases.  False confessions tend to be the result, but we don't often hear how the confession was obtained.  Someone paid for the crime, making society as a whole feel safer.  We are now less safe.  The perpetrator is still out there, looking for the next opportunity.  But as we have are a society of appearances, all is well.

What about in the instance of a missing person? Torture to find the location of the person, not to get a confession?

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Do you seriously believe that any positive example we lead will affect the way that terrorists behave?

Pass some of what you're smoking....

Is that really the only reason to act civilized?

I don't think so.

And the problem with torture is NOT that it yields spotty intelligence. It is that it is WRONG. My god people!

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Is that really the only reason to act civilized?

I don't think so.

And the problem with torture is NOT that it yields spotty intelligence. It is that it is WRONG. My god people!

Let's make a straw man and say that 1,000 water boardings produce 1 confession that ends up being a lead that stops a dirty nuke from taking out 200,000 people in LA. Still wrong? Still feeling "unethical"?  Not me.

Sleep tight tonight, someone with more balls than *you is protecting America and your personal interests.
*Proverbial "you", not you personally, but those who think like you.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by MORAY37
You mean Qatar, the richest middle eastern country.... with a GDP of 52,500$, opposed to our own 40,200$?  Your post shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm sure hope you are smarter than your post.  Yet, you may only be the ultimate example that ignorance of fact is in fact bliss.

 That's not what it says here Mr. Bliss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

or here:  http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP.pdf
(Qatar doesn't rank on this page....)

You didn't point out that it was a PER CAPITA GDP figure (since there are many ways to determine and askew these numbers), and for what he was refering to, is quite useless to mention anyways. A few million sitting on oil and gas. Thats what pumps thier GDP out the wazoo, and that oil and gas is probably a better reason for not bombing, ya think?

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Let's make a straw man and say that 1,000 water boardings produce 1 confession that ends up being a lead that stops a dirty nuke from taking out 200,000 people in LA. Still wrong? Still feeling "unethical"?  Not me.

Sleep tight tonight, someone with more balls than *you is protecting America and your personal interests.
*Proverbial "you", not you personally, but those who think like you.

Still wrong. Those 1000 water boardings will likely create more terrorists than they "catch".

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Is that really the only reason to act civilized?

I don't think so.

And the problem with torture is NOT that it yields spotty intelligence. It is that it is WRONG. My god people!

The problem with torture in this case is because it is illdefined.

The 1984 U.N. Convention Against Torture narrowly defines torture within the confines of the second form. The Convention defines torture as any act which intentionally inflicts severe mental or physical pain on a victim for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession or for punishing the victim for conduct or suspected conduct

the European Court of Human Rights refrained from committing to a particular set of criteria for the severity requirement, or creating a list of acts which would always be considered torture, or characterizing the evidence necessary to prove either. Thus, the outcome of an individual case remains unpredictable.

Is water boarding severe physical pain?  From what I have read, its not so much physical pain as the panic that ensues when one believes he is drowning.

Is fear severe mental pain?   If you think it is, WB is torture  if you think not, WB is alowed under int'l law.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Still wrong. Those 1000 water boardings will likely create more terrorists than they "catch".

Ah. The ol' "we create more when we do this" theory. Doesn't hold much water.  Terrorists are already fed a daily dose of "infidel" sandwiches without reviewing tapes of tortured comrades.  The torture tapes aren't shown during their terrorist camp breaks...only reruns of the WTC towers collapsing are.

[Hornet33]

As long as a method of interogation does no permanent physical damage to someone then it isn't torture. Waterboarding isn't torture, it just make someone very uncomfortable. Keeping them awake for 24-36-48 hours isn't torture, it just makes them real tired. Stacking naked guys on top of each other, taking pictures and laughing at them isn't toture, that's a frat prank.

These guys have been caught and linked to terrorists groups. These groups go about their daily lives thinking of ways to kill or maim as many people as they possibly can. Not for political reasons, but because their religion tells them it's not only OK to do it but that it's their DUTY to do it. In the span of 2 hours on September 11th 2001 these people managed to kill over 3000 of my fellow citizens who were doing nothing more than living their lives and not bothering anyone.

Why should I feel bad for them when some soilder spits on their Koran? As far as I'm concerned they can wipe a pigs bellybutton with the thing right in front of them and then rub it in their face. Wouldn't bother me at all.

Why should I worry about their civil rights when I KNOW they don't give a ratts bellybutton about mine?

Because I think I'm better than that? Because I should be above such things?

How about this....they want to live like it's the middle ages, fine. I say treat like we would have in the middle ages.

I don't give a damn if some limp wristed wimp thinks it's wrong. If they don't have the stomach for it then leave it to the real men that do and stay out of the way.

The only way we can ever be secure is to turn our wolfhounds loose and let them hunt down and kill the wolfs. Otherwise the sheep will continue to get picked off one by one and think it's better to keep the wolfs happy with a little here and a little there until one day the sheep are all dead.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Hornet33
Why should I worry about their civil rights when I KNOW they don't give a ratts bellybutton about mine?

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?  Matthew 16:26

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Hornet33
As long as a method of interogation does no permanent physical damage to someone then it isn't torture. Waterboarding isn't torture, it just make someone very uncomfortable. Keeping them awake for 24-36-48 hours isn't torture, it just makes them real tired. Stacking naked guys on top of each other, taking pictures and laughing at them isn't toture, that's a frat prank.

So it would be acceptable for police officers to do such things to citizens then?

[cav58d]

I think a major problem with the torture arguement on a whole is that there are people that believe, and groups that want people to believe that torture is just another tool in the rucksack of a US Soldier.  As gunslinger started to point out, most civillians have no clue about military operations, and making the average American believe that US soldiers are out in Iraq and Afghanistan just torturing anyone and everyone, is just as dangerous as the negatives involved in the practice of torture....

I'll be honest with you...I never really thought about torture in regards to the US holding an individual who has time critical information which could save lives....Know why?  Because I expect my country to do everything it possibly can to prevent the loss of life.

Like I said earlier...We should never accept random torture (it's not happening anyways.....), however, in a situation where an individual has information that is going to lead to either an attack, or the US's ability to prevent it, then we damn well better do whatever it takes to get that information out of him.

But I can also understand the points of people like Senator McCain...He was a POW for 7 or whatever it was years...I believe he was tortured the entire time...What for?  At best, for him, or another POW to record a scripted statement against the US?

So here it is........I say that if it's a time critical situation to safe lives, torture only for valid information...never to force anyone to do something, and as soon as that window of the validity of the information the individual holds closes, then there is nothing else torture can accomplish ie- torturing a gitmo jihadi captured in 2001.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Thrawn
So it would be acceptable for police officers to do such things to citizens then?

wow. just...'wow'. could you explain to  me the police officer/citizen comparison to that  of a soldier/terrorist ?