Author Topic: The waterboarding controversy  (Read 1040 times)

Offline AKIron

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2007, 10:47:30 AM »
Attitudes will change when a nuke is detonated in downtown San Francisco, probably not before.
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Offline Cypher

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Re: Re: The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2007, 10:50:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
I'd assume you would likely have problems with them doing the same to our troops wouldn't yea? The reason we shouldn't torture prisoners is because our own troops become POW's from time to time.
 
 

That's the thing. when our guys are captured they are executed. first they are mutiliated tortured etc. So if we were to make the terrorists we capture (gasp!) feel like they are drowning or give them "mental anguish" it really won't change much.

Offline SaburoS

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2007, 10:55:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Attitudes will change when a nuke is detonated in downtown San Francisco, probably not before.


Perhaps by some relatives seeking revenge of an innocent victim who happens to die from waterboarding?
Maybe from a bomb dropped on their house?
Maybe from getting killed from a stray bullet?
Maybe from ...?
Perhaps that's why it isn't so good to invade and occupy a country on false pretenses.
Too many innocent victims that we end up creating enemies of.
Those are the relatives I'd be worrying about down the road.
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Offline Thrawn

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2007, 11:01:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cypher
That's the thing. when our guys are captured they are executed. first they are mutiliated tortured etc. So if we were to make the terrorists we capture (gasp!) feel like they are drowning or give them "mental anguish" it really won't change much.



From a pragmatic stand point it does.  Your allies look at you with contempt.  People who may be sitting on the fence instead support your enemies because you are acting like barbaric scum.

Offline crockett

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Re: Re: Re: The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2007, 11:01:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Do you seriously believe that any positive example we lead will affect the way that terrorists behave?

Pass some of what you're smoking....:lol


Quote
Originally posted by crockett
I guess you didn't read the rest of the post.
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Offline Masherbrum

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2007, 11:04:06 AM »
We shouldn't even detain them.   If they are firing at our guys, kill them on site.   Then the "Waterboard whining" will stop.
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Offline crockett

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2007, 11:05:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn

Imagine the shoe was on the other foot.  A foreign power decides to invade the US and occupy.  Would you resist?  Would any of your friends and family?  If so, what if they were arrested and water boarded?  Would you be perfectly fine with this?  Would it not be torture?  What if they were water boarded for hours and days on end?

What if your friends and relatives weren't resisting, but that the occupying power thought they were connected to the resistance?


Oh you know they can't answer that question truthfully. Then they would have foot in mouth disease.
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Offline Masherbrum

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2007, 11:09:40 AM »
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Originally posted by crockett
Oh you know they can't answer that question truthfully. Then they would have foot in mouth disease.
I will.   I'd take as many of them with me as possible (not my family, to eliminate any retarded remarks).    I'm proud of the Country I live in.   I'm also tired of the fence jumpers.   They can leave it anytime they want.  

I was raised not to lie and I still live by it.
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Offline Charon

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2007, 11:59:34 AM »
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Attitudes will change when a nuke is detonated in downtown San Francisco, probably not before.


Unlike the show "21" the nuke won't be prevented by some last second coercion. It will either be prevented, or not, by our human intelligence operations. Basically, spies, and likely in foreign countries. The fact that human intelligence lacks the lobbyists in Washington that the aerospace industry commands is worrisome. We let these capabilities lapse in the past 30-40 years and are half-assed playing marginal catch up.

I could see Hollywood style "21" torture on very specific and know targets in clear circumstances. Unfortunately, the kind antics seen in Abu Ghraib illustrate both a glaring and embarrassing failure of military discipline and, at a higher level, the total lack of appreciation for how to fight 4th generation warfare successfully. The harm these actions cost the US in support and legitimacy -- in Iraq, the Middle East and broader internationally was tremendous. From a 4th Generation warfare perspective these means do not justify 99 percent of the ends they might possibly generate. But as noted the ends tend to be limited to begin with even in 3rd generation warfare dynamics. BTW, most of those prisoners were not found to be the real deal.

On the moral and freedoms front, I would rather we not become our enemy to "feel" safe. Kinda defeats the point of America. Freedom, rights, morality -- all messy. Terrorists and other bad people can take advantage of this for sure. But, the alternative is not a country I would like to call home, anymore than I would move to Saudi Arabia, or North Korea. After all, what state is safer from terrorism today than north Korea?

Charon

Offline john9001

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2007, 12:03:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn

Imagine the shoe was on the other foot.  A foreign power decides to invade the US and occupy.  


i have to ask, why would any foreign power want to occupy the USA?

Offline AKIron

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2007, 12:05:30 PM »
I agree Charon. I would have us neither live in fear nor exercise oppresion. However, when a city or two is nuked, attitudes will change. I'm just making what I believe to be an observation.
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Offline bj229r

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2007, 12:13:31 PM »
folks like this are never gonna be placated:


Any of these poor bastards from North Korea would LAUGH at you for comparing 'water-boarding' to what happened to them:

Quote
When Mr. Shin was 13, his mother and brother attempted an escape, unsuccessfully. That day, a civilian car met Mr. Shin outside the camp school. He was driven to a secret, underground location.

There, guards demanded details of the plot. Mr. Shin was ignorant of it. He was suspended over a fire. When he screamed, a hook was hacked into his groin. Unconscious, he was slung into a cell with a skeletal old man.

The man cared for the child's festering injuries and gave him his own meager rations. It was the first time Mr. Shin had ever received affection from another human. "I will never forget him," Mr. Shin wrote. "I came to love him more than my parents."

After seven months, Mr. Shin was released to witness his mother's hanging and his brother's execution by shooting. Mr. Shin noticed his father in tears, but he had only one emotion: "I was furious with them; as a result of their crimes, I was subject to torture."

Life continued. His niece was raped and killed by guards. He dropped a sewing machine; guards chopped off a fingertip with a knife. Constantly hungry, he once found three corn kernels in a pile of cow manure, his "lucky day." Unaware of any world beyond the wire, his dreams were to excel at work, gain permission to marry or become a team leader.
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Offline bj229r

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2007, 12:14:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
i have to ask, why would any foreign power want to occupy the USA?
Lol, Mexico is:D
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Offline Odee

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2007, 12:29:13 PM »
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Originally posted by bsdaddict
"on the field of battle" is different than "in Gitmo being held indefinitely without access to a lawyer for sometimes years...
Look back through history, at how POW's were treated before this Iraq and wussyfication of America... the Devil Country to most all third world nations

THEY, the enemy, do not get lawyers.  Period.  No where in the articles of war or the Geneva Convention (of which Al Quiada is not a signatory) is it written that POWs get lawyers.  They can be vistied by Red Cross and other NEUTRAL parties.  Other than that all they get is held in prisons.  And after the war is over, they get REPATRIATED to their own craphole country.
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Offline Charon

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The waterboarding controversy
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2007, 01:29:04 PM »
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However, when a city or two is nuked, attitudes will change. I'm just making what I believe to be an observation.


Can't disagree with that.

Charon