The waterboarding controversy

[LePaul]

I guess I'm at a loss to see the further wussification of this country.

We capture terrorists in the field of battle.  

According to the, ahem, civil world of utopian manners, we have to "Mother may I" and "Please tell" us any info.

I seldom watch the national news, but all three networks made a big "boohoo" over how, gawsh darnit mean we are to dare interogate terrorists.

Frankly, I have no problem with our forces playing russian roulette with these scumbags.   I mean, Hello....enemy forces out to kill us?  

But if the media had their way, we'd give these guys rights and prosecute they on Judge Judy.

Rant over.  Yesh.

[Holden McGroin]

I sat on our local water board.  

I would have said anything to get out of those meetings.

It was boring and at times unpleasant, but I would not classify it as torture... it's not any tougher than jury duty.

[Samiam]

'cept the "field of battle" isn't defined and apparently includes every square inch of the U.S. of A. and "terrorist" isn't defined either and is soon likely to include twelve year-olds who participate in illegal file sharing.

It bears repeating even though the ears that need to hear it most are long deaf: civil liberties are meaningful because they apply to the objectionable equally as to the saintly.

[uberhun]

Maybe we should give em pink bellies instead of chinese water torture??
Just a suggestion:D

[crockett]

Originally posted by LePaul
I guess I'm at a loss to see the further wussification of this country.

We capture terrorists in the field of battle.  

According to the, ahem, civil world of utopian manners, we have to "Mother may I" and "Please tell" us any info.

I seldom watch the national news, but all three networks made a big "boohoo" over how, gawsh darnit mean we are to dare interogate terrorists.

Frankly, I have no problem with our forces playing russian roulette with these scumbags.   I mean, Hello....enemy forces out to kill us?  

But if the media had their way, we'd give these guys rights and prosecute they on Judge Judy.

Rant over.  Yesh.

I'd assume you would likely have problems with them doing the same to our troops wouldn't yea? The reason we shouldn't torture prisoners is because our own troops become POW's from time to time.

If we fail to lead by example, why will anyone else feel the need to not torture our soldiers? Regardless of what terrorist do we shouldn't be lowering ourselves to their standards.. If we do we are no better than they are.

Just because we aren't fighting a conventional army now, doesn't mean that we wont do so in the future. How can we expect the next real army to treat our captured troops under the laws of the Geneva convention, if we have a track record of breaking it ourselves.

Are we not better than they are? If you say yes, well then I'd expect you to act like it.

[john9001]

is waterboarding anything like snowboarding?

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by crockett
I'd assume you would likely have problems with them doing the same to our troops wouldn't yea? The reason we shouldn't torture prisoners is because our own troops become POW's from time to time.

 

Ya, we need to be careful here.  If we don't treat our prisoners with kid gloves, the enemy might get really mad and start doing things worse than mutilating, incinerating,  torturing, and beheading our captured troopers.

[bsdaddict]

"on the field of battle" is different than "in Gitmo being held indefinitely without access to a lawyer for sometimes years..." conveniently offshore so the jailors can claim (incorrectly) that the constitution doesn't apply, regardless of one's citizenship.  that's just whacked...  "on the field of battle", I agree, almost anything goes...  but something's wrong when the gov't can snatch a guy off the street, whisk him away and hold him incommunicado for as long as they see fit, 'cause they've deemed him an "enemy combatant" and the rules don't apply.

it doesn't just happen "on the field of battle."

[crockett]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Ya, we need to be careful here.  If we don't treat our prisoners with kid gloves, the enemy might get really mad and start doing things worse than mutilating, incinerating,  torturing, and beheading our captured troopers.

I guess you didn't read the rest of the post.

[SteveBailey]

I read it... I just disagree with it.  I don't want to be "better" than anyone.

We've taken the high road for years and it got us nothing... less than nothing.  Our enemies think us soft and are emboldened by what we consider our benevolence.  Our enemies consider it weakness.

Tell me, what is the point in being better than our enemy?  They already maim and kill our troopers when they catch them. Much of the rest of the world has been indifferent or openly unfriendly to us for years.. this in spite of the fact that no other country even approaches our world wide generosity. IMHO we have nothing to gain by being  "better"

In my opinion we are in a dog fight.  The kind of fight where one dog doesn't get up and walk away  when it's over.  I think we need not be nicer, but nastier still than we are now.  We need to fight like we are cornered and have nowhere to go.  I believe this because our enemy would not stop trying to kill us if we left their country. gave in to their demands( it never worked for the palestinians.. they kept on killing Jews)

I believe we must get primordial... mercilessly exterminate our enemy as we ourselves face such a fate if we don't.(terrorists w/ nukes one day)

I'm not trying to make you see my view.. just giving you mine.  YMMV

[Meatwad]

Al Jizerra or whatever it is named seems to always broadcast terrorist support messages, killings, etc. Even though the address is Qatar, why cant we just drop a 500lb bomb on it and shut that station down



What does that country have, a few camels and a drunken arab?

[cav58d]

I think its a difficult situation...I agree with the whole idea that if we do it, we can't be suprised when it happens to American POW's, however, in the short term; I think this is the type of enemy that will do whatever they please to American's, regardless of the path we take in treating POW's.  I also think if the US Government publically admitted to the general use of torture, it would be a lot of fuel added to the jihad fire....

However in the long term, we have to entertain the idea that in the future, there is the potential to be fighting a war against a state, and a legitimate military, and once again, I don't think we want them to view torture as "fair game" because the United States is doing it.

Back to the current situation......Should we allow needless and random torture against any POW just for the hell of it?  No, and it should never be stood for...That said, if an individual is captured, and we have reasonable belief that he (or she) harbors time critical information, which would lead to an attack, or the loss of life, then I think it is the duty of the US Government to make every attempt possible to extract the information.  Defining everything and setting definitive rules is a whole different story, that i'm not even going to get into though.

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by Meatwad
Al Jizerra or whatever it is named seems to always broadcast terrorist support messages, killings, etc. Even though the address is Qatar, why cant we just drop a 500lb bomb on it and shut that station down



What does that country have, a few camels and a drunken arab?

You mean Qatar, the richest middle eastern country.... with a GDP of 52,500$, opposed to our own 40,200$?  Your post shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm sure hope you are smarter than your post.  Yet, you may only be the ultimate example that ignorance of fact is in fact bliss.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by cav58d
I think its a difficult situation...I agree with the whole idea that if we do it, we can't be suprised when it happens to American POW's, however, in the short term; I think this is the type of enemy that will do whatever they please to American's, regardless of the path we take in treating POW's.  I also think if the US Government publically admitted to the general use of torture, it would be a lot of fuel added to the jihad fire....

However in the long term, we have to entertain the idea that in the future, there is the potential to be fighting a war against a state, and a legitimate military, and once again, I don't think we want them to view torture as "fair game" because the United States is doing it.

Back to the current situation......Should we allow needless and random torture against any POW just for the hell of it?  No, and it should never be stood for...That said, if an individual is captured, and we have reasonable belief that he (or she) harbors time critical information, which would lead to an attack, or the loss of life, then I think it is the duty of the US Government to make every attempt possible to extract the information.  Defining everything and setting definitive rules is a whole different story, that i'm not even going to get into though.

This is why the geneva convention should be treated not as governing law, but as Gentlemanly agreements between countries.

[Gunslinger]

I can honestly see both sides of the argument.  I certainly wouldn't want the term "terrorists" applied so broadly that we are waterboarding soccar moms because they were spotted at a  protest at one point in time.

OTOH, I have a real big problem with not civilians that have no clue about military operations putting drastic limitations on our military and then blaiming them when the job doesnt get done.

I understand the whole constituionality argument that "civilian" govt. runs the military.....however, I think we should leave discretion up to the commanders on the ground.  Let them do their jobs and use their judgement yet hold them accountable for their standards.  

I have no problem with using non-invasive interrogation techniques on a guy when it might save millions of lives.

I have a huge problem with it when we are doing on a farmer who might or might not know anything.  

There's a difference and our commanders on the ground know this.  Let them make that call.