Author Topic: Aerodynamics websites  (Read 1732 times)

Offline SgtPappy

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« on: November 14, 2007, 03:55:22 PM »
I'm in a conversation with a few people at WWII Aircraft Forums; some of whom argue that the F4U cannot outturn a Spitfire XIV (regardless of flap position) and that the Fw 190 flaps were more efficient at increasing the 190's turn rate than the F4U's flaps.

(i.e. not necessarily that the 190 outturned the F4U, but that the 190's flaps increased the turn rate by a higher percentage that the F4U's flaps did).

With all the tests already done on proving that the F4U's flap performance is credible and theoretically correct, I'd like to know if there are any sites that will give me the numbers I need to plug the Spitfire XIV and 190-A5/D9 into the equation at this site:  The Math Behind Turning
I am a Spitdweeb

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Offline splitatom

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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 05:21:53 PM »
ow that made my head hurt:huh
snowey flying since tour 78

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 05:40:43 PM »
Haha, yea, I'm still trying to understand the site fully as well, but for now, I just need to prove the WWII Aircraft Forum members that, mathematically, a Corsair WILL outturn a Spit 14 and a 190 with flaps.
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 07:24:22 PM »
Somewhere around here someone posted the report of an actual "aggressor" test between the 190, F4U and F6F, and the F4U generally pwned the 190.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 09:34:32 PM »
Ah, thanks again Sax. I'll be looking for that then.

Though still have to plug in the co-efficients for the Spit14. I've looked it up and since I'm a bit slow, I'd still like to know what the prop reduction gear ratio has to do with calculating turning ability.
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 11:03:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Somewhere around here someone posted the report of an actual "aggressor" test between the 190, F4U and F6F, and the F4U generally pwned the 190.


You can find this report here.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2007, 12:08:54 AM »
RofL. It's like magic. Mention "someone has flight test data" and *poof* Widewing appears with a link. :D

It's too bad they didn't list the BuNo for the F4U involved in the test. Would have been interesting to know if this was a birdcage, or a 1A with the improved engine. I noticed at the end the test specified the F4U was fit with the original factory-installed toothpick prop, not the paddle prop aircraft in the field were being equipped with. I'd say the improvement in acceleration and climb that would provide should only up the pwnage the F4U has over the 190.

Downside is, if Pappy tries to use this document to prove his point he's bound to get nay-sayers complaining because it was a test run by Allied pilots so MUST be slanted for propaganda!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 12:27:18 AM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline schlowy2

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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 01:56:33 AM »

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 02:06:48 AM »
With my magic powers I sense a upcoming...

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In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2007, 06:17:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
RofL. It's like magic. Mention "someone has flight test data" and *poof* Widewing appears with a link. :D

It's too bad they didn't list the BuNo for the F4U involved in the test. Would have been interesting to know if this was a birdcage, or a 1A with the improved engine. I noticed at the end the test specified the F4U was fit with the original factory-installed toothpick prop, not the paddle prop aircraft in the field were being equipped with. I'd say the improvement in acceleration and climb that would provide should only up the pwnage the F4U has over the 190.

Downside is, if Pappy tries to use this document to prove his point he's bound to get nay-sayers complaining because it was a test run by Allied pilots so MUST be slanted for propaganda!


Did you happen to notice that this test recorded a maximum speed of 391 mph TAS for the F6F-3? Meanwhile, our more powerful, cleaner F6F-5 does only 386 mph TAS... Time to fix that, I think.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Stang

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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2007, 08:42:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Did you happen to notice that this test recorded a maximum speed of 391 mph TAS for the F6F-3? Meanwhile, our more powerful, cleaner F6F-5 does only 386 mph TAS... Time to fix that, I think.

My regards,

Widewing
Is there any way to fix it accurately, though?  If what I've read here and eslwhere is correct, the pitot tube on the F6 did not measure its speed correctly.  Can we go by heresay evidence that it was able to keep up with the F4u when they flew together?  I hope there is a quantifyable way to prove it.  Otherwise I doubt we get a faster F6F-5.

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 10:01:04 PM »
That's WW for ya.

yes, it's Allied work, Sax but those guys are using German documents to support their flap theories as well.

It's likely HTC does have the ability to fix the Hellcat, but theyve gotta be busy for now... working on the perk ord system most likely. I have heard that one day, all the AH:I planes will be upgraded to AH:II standards.
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline SuBWaYCH

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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2007, 10:03:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by schlowy2
hey Saxman, check these sites too:

http://www.uberfw190spwntsorryarsef4uslikenobodysbusiness.com

If that link doesn't work try this one:
http://www.suxmangroupsallalliestogetheraslikemindedlol.com

or this one:
http://www.ifyoudontbelievethissitethenyouareanaysayer.com


Dweeb and Spammer.
Skuzzy, get your big 'ol PNG stick out, please!

Regards,
Subway
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364th Chawks

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2007, 10:29:56 PM »
So they responded with this:

http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000409169664360027
I argued that this only works for a constant airfoil, while the F4U's airfoil in combo with its thrust features allow it to turn better.
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2007, 11:18:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
Is there any way to fix it accurately, though?  If what I've read here and eslwhere is correct, the pitot tube on the F6 did not measure its speed correctly.  Can we go by heresay evidence that it was able to keep up with the F4u when they flew together?  I hope there is a quantifyable way to prove it.  Otherwise I doubt we get a faster F6F-5.


There's plenty of flight test data, done with a data tube independent of the airplane's pitot tube to substantiate speed. There's several Navy tests that show the F6F-5 doing 391 mph in MIL power. Another TAIC test shows (Report #17) shows a max speed of 409 mph in WEP with water injection. Grumman tests also show speeds in excess of 400 mph. HTC has seen these and more.

As to the pitot tube issue; the air speed indicator showed a slower than actual speed. However, if that were modeled, E6B should show true air speed being different than the indicator. It doesn't.

You can read these reports online, courtesy of Mike Williams and Neil Sterling.

Here's a few links.

TAIC Report No. 17

Navy Test

Another Navy test

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 11:22:17 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.