Author Topic: It takes a Frenchman to see the greatness in the USA  (Read 4247 times)

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2007, 07:34:15 PM »
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, didn't North Vietnam start it?:confused:
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2007, 08:04:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, didn't North Vietnam start it?:confused:


It's a long read and some are gonna have a cow over the source but if you've the stamina and don't adhere to predisposition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

Basic highlights:

In 1941 the Communist-dominated national resistance group called the "League for the Independence of Vietnam" (better known as the Viet Minh) was formed. [They] were given funding and training by the United States Office of Strategic Services (the precursor of the Central Intelligence Agency).

In 1944, the Japanese overthrew the Vichy French administration and humiliated its colonial officials in front of the Vietnamese population. The Japanese began to encourage nationalism and granted Vietnam nominal independence.

Following the Japanese surrender, Vietnamese nationalists, communists, and other groups hoped to take control of the country. The Japanese army transferred power to the Viet Minh. Emperor Bao Dai abdicated. On September 2, 1945, Hồ Chν Minh declared independence from France, in what became known as the August Revolution. U.S. Army officers stood beside him on the podium.[9] In an exultant speech, before a huge audience in Hanoi, Ho cited the U.S. Declaration of Independence:

"'All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.' This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776 … We … solemnly declare to the world that Vietnam has the right to be a free and independent country. The entire Vietnamese people are determined … to sacrifice their lives and property in order to safeguard their independence and liberty."[10]

The new government lasted only a few days. At the Potsdam Conference the allies decided that Vietnam would be occupied jointly by China and Great Britain, who would supervise the disarmament and repatriation of Japanese forces.[11] The Chinese army arrived a few days after Hồ's declaration of independence. Ho Chi Minh's government effectively ceased to exist. The Chinese took control of the area north of the 16th parallel north. British forces arrived in the south in October and restored order. The British commander of Southeast Asia, Lord Mountbatten, sent over 20,000 troops of the 20th Indian division under General Douglas Gracey to occupy Saigon.

French officials immediately sought to reassert control. They negotiated with the Chinese Nationalists. By agreeing to give up its concessions in China, the French persuaded the Chinese to allow them to return to the north and negotiate with the Viet Minh. In the meantime, Hồ took advantage of the negotiations to kill competing nationalist groups. He was anxious for the Chinese to leave. "The last time the Chinese came," he remarked, "they stayed one thousand years … I prefer to smell French **** for five years, rather than eat Chinese dung for the rest of my life."[13] After negotiations collapsed over the formation of a government within the new French Union, the French bombarded Haiphong. In December 1946, they reoccupied Hanoi. Several telegrams were sent by Ho Chi Minh to President Truman asking for U.S. support. But they were ignored. Ho and the Việt Minh fled into the mountains to start an insurgency, marking the beginning of the First Indochina War.

In 1950, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and China recognized each other diplomatically. The Soviet Union quickly followed suit. President Harry S. Truman countered by recognizing the French puppet government of Vietnam. Washington feared that Hanoi was a pawn of Communist China and, by extension, Moscow. This flew in the face of the long historical antipathy between the two nations, of which the U.S. seems to have been completely ignorant.[19]

In 1950, the U.S. Military Assistance and Advisory Group (MAAG) arrived to screen French requests for aid, advise on strategy and train Vietnamese soldiers.[21] By 1954, the U.S. had supplied 300,000 small arms and spent one billion dollars in support of the French military effort. The Eisenhower administration was shouldering 80% of the cost of the war.[22] The Viet Minh received crucial support from the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China. Chinese support in the Border Campaign of 1950 allowed supplies to come from China into Vietnam. Throughout the conflict, U.S. intelligence estimates remained skeptical of French chances of success.[23]

The Battle of Dien Bien Phu marked the end of French involvement in Indochina.

As dictated by the Geneva Conference of 1954, the partition of Vietnam was meant to be only temporary, pending national elections on July 20, 1956. Much like Korea, the agreement stipulated that the two military zones were to be separated by a temporary demarcation line (known as the Demilitarized Zone or DMZ). The United States, alone among the great powers, refused to sign the Geneva agreement.[27] The President of South Vietnam, Ngo Dinh Diem, declined to hold elections. This called into question the United States' commitment to democracy in the region, but also raised questions about the legitimacy of any election held in the communist-run North. President Dwight D. Eisenhower expressed U.S. fears when he wrote that, in 1954, "80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh" over Emperor Bao Dai.[28][29] However, this wide popularity was expressed before Ho's disastrous land reform program and a peasant revolt in Ho's home province which had to be bloodily suppressed.

The cornerstone of U.S. policy was the Domino Theory. This argued that if South Vietnam fell to communist forces, then all of South East Asia would follow.

etc

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2007, 09:09:49 PM »
Ahh...so France started it:D  Yah, very muddled affair that was. Never really read up much prior to Dien Bien Phu Side note: anyone ever notice that brutal totalitarian regimes are ALWAYS called the "People's Republic of..." or the "Democratic Republic of..."
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2007, 10:17:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Ahh...so France started it:D  Yah, very muddled affair that was. Never really read up much prior to Dien Bien Phu Side note: anyone ever notice that brutal totalitarian regimes are ALWAYS called the "People's Republic of..." or the "Democratic Republic of..."


Sure. It's a common theme within ideologies claiming to empower people by design. Democracy isn't as insecure to require a reminder in the national title. Now maintaining the democracy in a democracy apparently requires a republic*. But then "republic" is used by other ideologies, as well. ;)

*In monarchies ... a parliment.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2007, 10:31:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Your presumptuous pizzy-fit aside, my relevant point was that you're not good at presenting a relevant point. If you're gonna justify war on the grounds of neccessity to defend against the power-hungry, the greedy and those who desire forcing their way on others and praise the defenders who stand in their way you might oughta pick a war to defend where we're not the invaders.

It's not your ideology (though I see some extremist/rhetoric-crutch flaws in that, as well). It's your faulty logic chip. :D


Get off your high horse and take some remedial reading and comprehension lessons.  You might want to make sure I am actually doing something before you accuse me of it.

sheesh  :rolleyes:
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Offline Dago

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« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2007, 10:33:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Sure. It's a common theme within ideologies claiming to empower people by design. Democracy isn't as insecure to require a reminder in the national title. Now maintaining the democracy in a democracy apparently requires a republic*. But then "republic" is used by other ideologies, as well. ;)

*In monarchies ... a parliment.


How come I suspect you are not aware the USA is and has always been a Republic and not a true democracy.  A true democracy is pretty much an impossible concept in a large nation.  Maybe you can cut and paste something in response?
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2007, 10:40:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
How come I suspect you are not aware the USA is and has always been a Republic and not a true democracy.  A true democracy is pretty much an impossible concept in a large nation.  Maybe you can cut and paste something in response?


I dunno. Maybe because you're stupid and you project? That's not a cut and paste, btw. :D

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2007, 10:43:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Get off your high horse and take some remedial reading and comprehension lessons.  You might want to make sure I am actually doing something before you accuse me of it.


Yeah, whatever, Clancy. ;)

Offline Torque

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« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2007, 11:09:27 PM »
Quote
:Originally posted by Dago
    Sorry if I have to disagree by saying "what a crock of crap". You are speaking in rhetrospect, the Canadians didn't have the vision to either understand or predict that war. I'm an sure they would like to pretend your statement is correct, but it is hindsight wisdom.

    What sucked about Viet Nam was the way our civilian leadership controlled it, the restrictions they placed on the military, and their refusal to fight full out to win. Politics is what you do before a war, not during a war.


dago... do put down the comic book historian persona for a sec.

there were many canadian military personnel on the ground in vietnam during 1955... under the international commissions on supervision and control... to oversee and report on the implementation of the geneva agreements.

they were designated at legal entry points... seven in the north, and seven in the south... to monitor the withdrawal of military forces and to supervise the handover of governmental authority to their respective regimes.

they were indeed apart of a crude peace keeping mission... it became quite obvious to them that given to a free election ho chi minh would have won by a landslide.

freedom of choice is just that... and not the choices you impose.

next...

minh's numerous letters to truman sure put a whole new spin on why vietnam sucked... and they were all ignored... the irony.

February 16, 1945

"DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:

Our VIETNAM people, as early as 1941, stood by the Allies' side and fought against the Japanese and their associates, the French colonialists.

From 1941 to 1945 we fought bitterly, sustained by the patriotism, of our fellow-countrymen and by the promises made by the Allies at YALTA, SAN FRANCISCO and POTSDAM.

When the Japanese were defeated in August 1945, the whole Vietnam territory was united under a Provisional Republican Government, which immediately set out to work. In five months, peace and order were restored, a democratic republic was established on legal bases, and adequate help was given to the Allies in the carrying out of their disarmament mission.

But the French Colonialists, who betrayed in wartime both the Allies and the Vietnamese, have come back, and are waging on us a murderous and pitiless war in order reestablish their domination. Their invasion has extended to South Vietnam and is menacing us in North Vietnam. It would take volumes to give even an abbreviated report of the crisis and assassinations they are committing everyday in this fighting area.

This aggression is contrary to all principles of international law and the pledge made by the Allies during World War II. It is a challenge to the noble attitude shown before, during, and after the war by the United States Government and People. It violently contrasts with the firm stand you have taken in your twelve point declaration, and with the idealistic loftiness and generosity expressed by your delegates to the United Nations Assembly, MM. BYRNES, STETTINIUS, AND J.F. DULLES.

The French aggression on a peace-loving people is a direct menace to world security. It implies the complicity, or at least the connivance of the Great Democracies. The United Nations ought to keep their words. They ought to interfere to stop this unjust war, and to show that they mean to carry out in peacetime the principles for which they fought in wartime.

Our Vietnamese people, after so many years of spoliation and devastation, is just beginning its building-up work. It needs security and freedom, first to achieve internal prosperity and welfare, and later to bring its small contribution to world-reconstruction.

These security and freedom can only be guaranteed by our independence from any colonial power, and our free cooperation with all other powers. It is with this firm conviction that we request of the United Sates as guardians and champions of World Justice to take a decisive step in support of our independence.

What we ask has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED STATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.

I am, Dear Mr. PRESIDENT,

Respectfully Yours,

Ho Chi Minh"
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 11:32:53 PM by Torque »