This always bugged me ww2

[crockett]

When watching old gun cam films from ww2 one of the first things that seems to go out is the hydraulics for the landing gears.  Which in effect causes one or maybe both landing gears to drop down.

In a fighter that's going to have major consequences and likely mean a quick doom for a plane that was likely already in trouble. Seems like it was a fairly common issue with both fighters and bombers.

So my question is.. Why didn't the planes have manual activated latches that hold the gears in place regardless if the plane had hydraulic pressure?

Sure it might be harder to do on a big bomber, but seems a simple manual gear latching system could have easily been used on fighters.

[Hornet33]

Some how I don't think it would have mattered one little bit. I can imagine the radio traffic though.

Chilli Willie, this is Fuzzy Bunny....I got a bandit (ping, ping, ping) all over me!!!!

Roger that Fuzzy Bunny, I'm coming as fast as I can.

Well hurry (ping, ping, ping, BAM) this guy is tearing me up!!!!!

Well Fuzzy Bunny at least you don't have to worry about your gear dropping down, you have the new manual gear locks.

Hey (ping, BAM, BAM, BOOM, ping, ping) that's true, I guess I'll be OK then.

Seriously though, modern fighters don't have them either. If your getting shot up to the point your gear is falling out of the plane, a little latch isn't going to help, because you have BIGGER problems to deal with.

[Motherland]

The thing about the I 153 is that the landing gear was hand-cranked... so it did not have this problem... but a whole set of other problems...

Hornet, usually when the gear comes out, theres only a couple pings on the aircraft, that usually just hapen to hit the line by pure luck. Otherwise the whole wing disintegrates. But, with the gear coming out, you have the whole assymetrical drag thing that makes a plane with jammed flaps a pain in the arse to fly. Couple this with the already unstable 109 (just an example) and an unexperienced Luftwaffe pilot, and you have a death waiting to happen. A manually withdrawn latch that would just be able to hold the gear could have been a lifesaver to a few pilots.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Hornet33
Some how I don't think it would have mattered one little bit. I can imagine the radio traffic though.

Chilli Willie, this is Fuzzy Bunny....I got a bandit (ping, ping, ping) all over me!!!!

Roger that Fuzzy Bunny, I'm coming as fast as I can.

Well hurry (ping, ping, ping, BAM) this guy is tearing me up!!!!!

Well Fuzzy Bunny at least you don't have to worry about your gear dropping down, you have the new manual gear locks.

Hey (ping, BAM, BAM, BOOM, ping, ping) that's true, I guess I'll be OK then.

Seriously though, modern fighters don't have them either. If your getting shot up to the point your gear is falling out of the plane, a little latch isn't going to help, because you have BIGGER problems to deal with.

Modern fighters will likely never see a actual dog fight again, so it's a mute point in this day and age. Guns on modern aircraft are there only for a "just in case" because we learned our lesson with the Phantom F4.

The last time I've heard any modern fighter using guns was during the Afghan war. One of our Chinook helicopters was shot down and the surviving soldiers were trapped on a mountain top surrounded by enemy Taliban fighters.

There was an F16 if I'm not mistaken that was making gun pass runs on a enemy bunker, because it was too close to our troops to use ords. The air commander actually pulled the pilot out of the fight because they were afraid he was going to hit the friendly troops.

The last air to air kill using guns on a fighter if I'm not mistaken was done by an Israeli pilot during the 7 day war. So needless to say dog fights are a thing of the past, now daysa you are dead before you even see the other air craft.

In WW2 it was a diffrent story and I think manual latches could have made the diffrence in many fights.

[cav58d]

Originally posted by crockett
So my question is.. Why didn't the planes have manual activated latches that hold the gears in place regardless if the plane had hydraulic pressure?

I don't know a thing about the landing gear systems on WWII aircraft, but from what you say, it sounds like they were held in the up position by a simple, and a still widely used system today, of hydraulic pressure.  They always could have used a mechanical uplock, however i guess the concern would be if the electrical system failed, how would you release the mechanical uplocks, although it shouldn't have been difficult with a manual emergecy gear extender releasing the locks.  Honestly, it prolly wasn't that big of a deal to completely change the landing gear system during production.

[AWMac]

What???

You mean that hose lookin thingy is NOT a pisss tube?



Mac

[Hien]

...I really don't think it would make that big of a difference.  

A 30mm shell to the wing is a 30mm shell to the wing, if all you get is a loss of Hydralic Pressure and one of your gears sticking out, and you manage to fly home, you're lucky.  Most guncam shots seem to be dead 6, or very near it, and my guess is most of the guys didn't see it coming.  




Ignoring that, a few aircraft didn't have that kinda of Gear set up.

The I-153, and I-16 both had a crank system, that to my knowledge ran on bicycleesque chains.  

As did the Wildcat.  Whos gear system had been exactly the same for nearly 10 years.  Grumman (to my knowledge) had placed that gear build up on most of the CV aircraft proceding the F4F (Fifi, other things I can't remember the names of.)  

You had to hold the stick with your left hand, and manually crank up the gear with your right.   I can only imagine how fun that was... Even more so if you had just taken off from a carrier.   And to my knowledge it was the same idea in the I-153/16.  

It was quite innovative at the time, but when it first came out alot of Pilots forgot about thier gear...  I've read stories of F3F pilots who would land with the gear up on accident, because they just forgot about it.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Hien
...I really don't think it would make that big of a difference.  

A 30mm shell to the wing is a 30mm shell to the wing, if all you get is a loss of Hydralic Pressure and one of your gears sticking out, and you manage to fly home, you're lucky.  Most guncam shots seem to be dead 6, or very near it, and my guess is most of the guys didn't see it coming.  
 

I kinda disagree I think in many cases specially in bombers a manual latch could have helped save the plane.

I was just watching "Gun Cams" I think it was called on the Military Channel and there were two prime example just on that show. Which is kinda what got me thinking of it.

One was a 109 that was being trailed by an allied fighter. He lost hydraulic pressure and the left gear dropped. Shortly after the plane went out of control and I think the pilot bailed.

The other instance was a B17 I think it was had the right gear drop due to loss of hydraulic pressure. While it might not have made a big B17 so unstable that it went out of control, but one thing it would have done was slowed it down.

The added drag would have likely caused that plane to not be able to keep up with the rest of the bomber group making it easy prey. for the enemy fighters.

That's just two example that were on that show, but I can think of several others that I've seen. So it seems like it was a real problem with those planes.

[Rino]

Originally posted by crockett
I kinda disagree I think in many cases specially in bombers a manual latch could have helped save the plane.

I was just watching "Gun Cams" I think it was called on the Military Channel and there were two prime example just on that show. Which is kinda what got me thinking of it.

One was a 109 that was being trailed by an allied fighter. He lost hydraulic pressure and the left gear dropped. Shortly after the plane went out of control and I think the pilot bailed.

The other instance was a B17 I think it was had the right gear drop due to loss of hydraulic pressure. While it might not have made a big B17 so unstable that it went out of control, but one thing it would have done was slowed it down.

The added drag would have likely caused that plane to not be able to keep up with the rest of the bomber group making it easy prey. for the enemy fighters.

That's just two example that were on that show, but I can think of several others that I've seen. So it seems like it was a real problem with those planes.

     Couple of things...one it was the 6 Day war in 1967, and there were gun
kills in Vietnam after that.  In fact, an A-10 downed a Iraqi helo with 300
rounds of 30mm during Desert Storm.  There were also gun kills in 1982
by Israelis vrs the Syrians.

     Second, if the aircraft structure was damaged enough to lose hydraulic
pressure it's entirely possible that a gear uplock or even main control
component like aileron wires could be severed as well.

[Angus]

I remember a P51 pilot who got a burst on a 190, and one of it's gear came out.
These were electically powered AFAIK.
Anyway, the 190 turned into the increased drag on one side with very good results, the P51 pilot needed flaps to counter it. So, in the end, the 190 pilot saw what was coming, and hit the silk.

[lazs2]

by the time you take that much damage.. you are in deep do do in any case.   If you are allied.. that means bailing over enemy territory.   if you are german.. it means the first ping and..  out you go..  some farmer will give you a 10 minute ride back to a new plane.

lazs

[Charge]

"Why didn't the planes have manual activated latches that hold the gears in place regardless if the plane had hydraulic pressure?"

AFAIK some early P51s had a problem with their hydraulics so that when the landing gear was held up only by hydraulic pressure the gear might come out in a high speed pull-out from a dive and the resulting drag would tear off the wing. After a few tragic losses in dive bombing training the landing gear locks were put into P51s preventing further accidents.

It was a long ago since I read about this so can any P51 expert confirm this story?

-C+

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
by the time you take that much damage.. you are in deep do do in any case.   If you are allied.. that means bailing over enemy territory.   if you are german.. it means the first ping and..  out you go..  some farmer will give you a 10 minute ride back to a new plane.

lazs

I know a German who bailed over Germany, wounded and bloody, only to run for his life away from a German Farmer who thought he was an American

Farmers ....

[Yknurd]

This is why I only fly the F4F.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Yknurd
This is why I only fly the F4F.

you are afraid of farmers?