Author Topic: Stem Cell Breakthrough!  (Read 2324 times)

Offline AKIron

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Stem Cell Breakthrough!
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2007, 06:08:18 PM »
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Originally posted by Neubob
Why would they? Those who take care of themselves would have the most to gain from spare parts. They'd last the longest and get the most enjoyment from the physical abilities they retain.


Because it's not enough to win, someone has to lose.
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Re: Re: Stem Cell Breakthrough!
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2007, 06:10:38 PM »
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I dont understand who anyone would be against the distruction of embryos that would otherwise be tossed in the garbage anyway.
which is the type of embryos they want to use.

That entire "Christaiin" argument makes no sense to me.

OK you view embryos as being babies.
so what yoru saying is you would rather throw a baby thats never going ot be born in the garbage.
Then use it to help keep someone else alive.

And you wonder why they are referred to as "religious wackos"?


BTW its not illegal to use such embryos now. Just not to use Federal funding for them


Those jews were going to be gassed anyhow, why not let them contribute to the betterment of mankind through medical research?

Your last line is the one that so many crying about the lack of federal funding seem to ignore.
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Offline Neubob

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Stem Cell Breakthrough!
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2007, 06:31:22 PM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
Those jews were going to be gassed anyhow, why not let them contribute to the betterment of mankind through medical research?

Your last line is the one that so many crying about the lack of federal funding seem to ignore.


You're confusing the infliction of suffering with a byproduct of that suffering. The medical research the nazis did during the holocaust remains a major controversy among scientists--some saying that the inhumanity of the nazis is justified by using the data, and others saying that the dead would be honored if at least something positive can be attributed to their suffering. Still others say that scientific data is valuable on its own, no matter how it is gathered.

I don't see how this applies to our situation.

And as far as there needing to be a loser, I just don't see who it is? The poor of the world? By that logic we should all just give up 1/2 to 2/3 of the food we eat to at least start to even things out. The poor of the world can aspire to many things. Just as can the middle class of the world can aspire to many things, as well as the wealthy but not quite wealthy enough to afford a new spleen can aspire to many things.

The development and perfection of this technology is a must for humanity to progress. Lengthening of the lifespan is the greatest prizes imaginable. The approach of pacing ourselves to the slowest will only guarantee that humanity never significantly profits from the potential advancements. This goes for any technology... Chemotherapy, artificial organs, anti-lock breaks and flatscreen tvs.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2007, 06:33:44 PM »
I didn't say it was a valid argument. Just guessing what the wackos might come up with.
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Offline Neubob

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Stem Cell Breakthrough!
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2007, 06:36:02 PM »
You're doing a good job

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2007, 06:37:43 PM »
Here's another, too much money being spent on research when it could be spent buying me crac.... er.... feeding the poor.
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Offline Neubob

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Stem Cell Breakthrough!
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2007, 06:46:43 PM »
Still doing a good job. A bit of a left winger wacko now, but still effective.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2007, 09:33:21 PM »
Here's one:

Success in any other area besides embryonic stem cell research will only serve to justice the obstinance of the religious wackos. They must be completely humiliated and indoctrinated out of existence, at all costs.
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Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2007, 01:52:32 AM »
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Originally posted by KgB
religious wackos


Jesus Camp...Be very afraid..i was,that was until it showed who was behind it...>>>TED HAGGARD<<<

Ted Haggard=homosexual(sodomizer)/crack smoker/hypocrite & de-frocked leader of USA Evangelicals(& ex-presidential advisor to GWB)

Back to Jesus Camp...a five year old who says he needs to be saved?Another 5 yr old in combat fatigues and face camo in part of God's army?

The best scene was when the fat lady brings out a lifesize cardboard likeness of GWB...and they start worshipping it.

These are the crackpots that oppose SCR for no other reason than that they were told it was wrong by religious entreprenours(televangelists)

BTW,the fastest growing belief in the world today is Athiesm(doubled in last 10 years)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 01:55:25 AM by SirLoin »
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2007, 06:21:17 AM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
I didn't say it was a valid argument. Just guessing what the wackos might come up with.



Thank heavens
For a moment I thought you were serious.

I would have to say that untill recently those kind of whackos could arguably be denied the right to vote here in NJ.

We had a law on the books that said the "insane or idiots" couldnt vote.

That would pass on both counts LOL
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 06:30:53 AM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline lazs2

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Stem Cell Breakthrough!
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2007, 09:02:57 AM »
neubob... read what you wrote but haven't read every post in this thread.

I think that if you said "the whackos that might oppose this kind of research" then it would not have appeared that you have a hard on for people of faith who think life is precious.

I think that there would not be any more religious people opposed to this research than that of the general population.   Perhaps some christian scientists but.. they oppose everything and are a small group.

lazs

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2007, 09:33:01 AM »
Here's a truly evil one.

We can't do this research with private funds. It must be done with taxpayer money whether the taxpayer wants to support it or not.



gotta add a disclaimer for Drediock, no, I don't mean it seriously, there simply isn't anyone in the world this far out in screwball land.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 09:43:01 AM by AKIron »
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Offline Sabre

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An interesting take on the whole subject
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2007, 10:26:09 AM »
I'm still not sure I understand Neubob's working definition of "religious wacko".  Am I to take it that anyone who disaproves on religious grounds of destruction of embryos to support embryonic stem cell research (ESCR) is a religious wacko in his book?  After all, my moral objections are grounded in my belief in the sanctity of human life, which in turn are influenced to great extent by my religious views (I also believe stealing and adultery are wrong, ideas also influenced by said views).  Am I a religious wacko?  If so, I'm in abundant company, I'd say.

I guess a way to turn Neubob's original question around is, "Now that non-ESCR research has proven time and again to be orders of magnitude more productive than ESCR, what reason will the secular humanists find to demand the continued destruction of nacent human lives in pursuit of ESCR (and cloning, by extension)?"  Or to put it another way,  if I can save the notional little girl in the burning building (an inaccurate analogy, but lets go with it) without the necessity of harvesting and then destroying human embryos, is that not the preferred choice?  I put it this way because the choice was never saving one or the others, but purposely putting the embryos in the fire as a precondition for (possibly, maybe, sometime in the future after spending billions of dollars) saving the little girl.

The following artical by medical ethicist Wesley Smith sums the situation up nicely.

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Bush Bears Fruit
New discoveries pave the way for ethical stem-cell research, thanks to the president’s policies.

By Wesley J. Smith


Throughout his presidency, the Science Intelligentsia has castigated President Bush for placing limits on the federal funding of embryonic-stem-cell research (ESCR). Acting as if he had a banned ESCR, which of course he hadn’t, “the scientists” and their camp followers in the media and on Capital Hill accused the president of withholding cures from the ill in order to impose his religious beliefs on a reluctant public.

Little noted in all of the caterwauling, was that ESCR and human-cloning research (SCNT) have been funded bounteously — to the tune of nearly $2 billion. Not only has the National Institutes of Health put more than $150 million in recent years into human ESCR (about $40 annually), but according to a recent report put out by the Rockefeller Institute, to date about $1.7 billion has poured into ESCR and SCNT from philanthropic sources — and this doesn’t include the hundreds of millions granted annually by the states for cloning and ESCR experiments.

So what’s really going on here? Yes, the president’s policies have forced some research centers to set up separate labs for research on Bush-approved- and non-approved, stem-cell-research lines. But what really got under “the scientists” skin was the clarion moral message sent by the president: It is wrong to treat nascent human life as a mere natural resource to be sown, reaped, and consumed.

Big Biotech responded to the Bush policy by mounting a powerful public advocacy campaign aimed at both opening the federal spigots, and breaking the back of the moral opposition to ESCR and human cloning research. Railing against the president and supporters of his policy as “anti-science,” ESCR/SCNT advocates accused Bush of denying sick people needed medical breakthroughs. Human cloning via SCNT was redefined from “therapeutic cloning” in the advocates’ lexicon to merely “stem-cell research.” The change of term constituted a clever ruse that bundled and confused in people’s minds, the morally acceptable advances being made in adult stem-cell research, the morally dubious human cloning project, and the use of “spare” embryos for research that were “going to be discarded anyway.”
Sabre
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Offline Sabre

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Continued from previous post
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2007, 10:27:22 AM »
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For awhile, the political tide ran powerfully in the cloners’ direction. In November 2004, California voters passed Proposition 71, agreeing to borrow $3 billion over ten years to pay private companies, and their business partners in major university research centers, to conduct human cloning research and ESCR. This was followed with bipartisan votes in Congress passing legislation to overturn Bush’s policy. To this, the president responded with his only veto of the first term. This year, with the Democrats in control of both houses of Congress, that bit of Kabuki Theater was repeated — but the President’s policy held.

Then, almost without being perceived, the tide began to turn. Amendment 2 in Missouri — which established a constitutional right in Missouri to conduct human cloning research — was expected to cruise to an easy victory, proving that even in the Bible Belt, people wanted scientists to pursue ESCR/SCNT. But in the last two weeks of the campaign, public support for the measure plummeted in the face of the sheer power of Rush Limbaugh’s broadcasting voice in the imbroglio over actor Michael J. Fox’s pro ESCR/cloning political ads, and an effective last minute advertising campaign featuring St. Louis Cardinal baseball stars and popular actors which warned voters “don’t be bought, don’t be fooled.” The measure limped home with a bare majority, winning the day politically, but denying its sponsors of the big moral boost they expected to receive from its passage.

Meanwhile, little reported by the mainstream media, adult stem-cell/umbilical-cord blood stem-cell research advanced at an exhilarating pace. Early human trials showed that adult stem cells from olfactory tissues restored feeling to patients paralyzed with spinal-cord injury. Bone-marrow stem cells appeared to prevent the worsening of progressive MS. People with Type-1 diabetes were cured with their own adult stem cells. Increasingly, Big Biotech’s circus barker-call of CURES! CURES! CURES! seemed to be wearing thin. Then, just a few weeks ago, New Jersey voters shocked the science and political worlds by rejecting a $450 million bond measure that, like California’s Proposition 71, would have funded human cloning and embryonic-stem-cell research.

Returning to President Bush’s stem-cell funding policy; even though it was politically unpopular, the President believed wholeheartedly that the raw talent, intelligence, and creativity of the science sector would find a way to obtain pluripotent stem cells (the ability to become any cell type) through ethical means. In speeches and news conference answers about the stem-cell issue, Bush repeatedly supported existing ethical areas of research, and called upon researchers to find “alternative” methods of developing stem-cell medicine without treating nascent human life “as an experiment.” Toward this end, earlier this year Bush signed an executive order requiring the NIH to identify all sources of human pluripotent stem cells, and invited “scientists to work with the NIH, so we can add new ethically derived stem-cell lines to the list of those eligible for federal funding.”

The Science Establishment pouted and the New York Times castigated the president’s call. But other scientists had already taken up the president’s challenge, and their work was paying off. Experiments in mice by Rudolf Jaenisch at Harvard demonstrated proof of principle for “altered nuclear transfer” (ANT), a theoretical method of deriving pluripotent stem cells without creating and destroying embryos. Don Landry, Professor at Columbia University Department of Medicine, developed a way to identify dead embryos for potential use in stem-cell research — which would be no more unethical than researching on cadavers. Perhaps most excitingly, Kyoto University’s Shinya Yamanaka reprogrammed skin cells from the tails of mice, and reverted them back to an embryonic-like stem-cell state — offering tremendous hope that every therapeutic benefit scientists believed could be derived from therapeutic cloning, could instead be achieved by regressing a patient’s own tissues.

Then, last week very big news: Ian Wilmut — who opened the Pandora’s Box of human cloning with the creation of Dolly the sheep, and who two years ago obtained a license from the United Kingdom’s Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority to create cloned human embryos from the cells of Lou Gehrig’s disease patients — stunned the scientific world with the sudden and unexpected announcement that he had rejected human cloning research, in favor of pursuing cell reprogramming as an ethical and uncontroversial means of obtaining pluripotent cells. Wilmut told the Telegraph:

The odds are that by the time we make nuclear transfer work in humans, direct reprogramming will work too.

I am anticipating that before too long we will be able to use the Yamanaka approach to achieve the same, without making human embryos. I have no doubt that in the long term, direct reprogramming will be more productive, though we can't be sure exactly when, next year or five years into the future.

Finally, today came the Krakatau of stem-cell announcements: Reprogramming has been achieved using human cells. As reported by the journal Science, researchers reverted human connective tissue cells back to an embryonic-stem-cell-like state — and then differentiated them into all three of the body’s major tissue types. If this work pans out, there will be no need to create human cloned embryos for use in embryonic-stem-cell therapies.

I believe that many of these exciting “alternative” methods would not have been achieved but for President Bush’s stalwart stand promoting ethical stem-cell research. Indeed, had the president followed the crowd instead of leading it, most research efforts would have been devoted to trying to perfect ESCR and human-cloning research — which, despite copious funding, have not worked out yet as scientists originally hoped.

So thank you for your courageous leadership, Mr. President. Because of your willingness to absorb the brickbats of the Science Establishment, the Media Elite, and weak-kneed Republican and Democratic politicians alike — we now have the very real potential of developing thriving and robust stem-cell medicine and scientific research sectors that will bridge, rather than exacerbate, our moral differences over the importance and meaning of human life.
Sabre
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2007, 10:53:19 AM »
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Originally posted by SirLoin
BTW,the fastest growing belief in the world today is Athiesm(doubled in last 10 years)


Good. If secularist belief systems can out pace Islam humanity's future might be ok.