Author Topic: What is a Militia?  (Read 18519 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What is a Militia?
« Reply #690 on: January 03, 2008, 09:29:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Emotionally tied or opposed to your views and desires, I cannot justify that much hubris cushioning my own opinion.


How's your hubris on the Dred Scott, Plessy v Furgeson, Lum v Rice?

Bad decisions are bad decisions, no matter who wore the robes of a Supreme Court justice for over a century and had to deal with, debate, and rule on a particular issue.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline wrag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3499
What is a Militia?
« Reply #691 on: January 03, 2008, 11:05:08 AM »
OH WELL.......................

Had pretty much decided that Arlo and Bing were just trolling and stopped replying.

Still pretty much hold that opinion.

The answers Arlo gives SEEM intended to irritate and annoy more then actually answer.

Nothing said by Arlo means much to me.  Due to the above.  Just figure he would rather insult and irritate rather then discuss.

:aok

Now he's probably gonna come back and say something in as oily and insulting a manner as he can think of.  WHICH IMHO makes him a troller looking to push buttons and create anger or at the very least irritation.

Hey Arlo No Problem I understand.  Best to you Sir.

Kinda sad really.  Thinkin maybe that sort of thing makes his whole day :confused:

Well they say it take all kinds AND there is an Amendment that says he has every right to state his opinion.

Wonder what his reaction would be if the 1st Amendment was having such negative activity?  (Not that it already isn't under attack, IMHO, it's just a little more subtle is all.)  (Thinkin maybe the anti-terroism laws may be used there?)

:rofl   Fully expect a reference to conspiracy nuts after I stated the above.  I find it sadly humerus that our rights are slowly being whittled away and soooo many keep ignoring that fact and side with those takin em away.  You know, the ones that keep sayin a it's a Living Document, and what they really mean is they want to change the meanings we have held so dear for over 200 years.

As to actually reading up on those Documents that Laz refers to...................

Many of our younger generations have already been worked on by our Public School Systems.  Very few are actually taught, or have ever read, the Preamble to the Constitution, or the Declaration of Independence.

And if any have ever actually read the documents left behind by our Founders they pretty much did so on their own, as the schools seem to work very hard to avoid those altogether.  Like they didn't exist or something.  Guess they don't like em?
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Edbert

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2220
      • http://www.edbert.net
What is a Militia?
« Reply #692 on: January 03, 2008, 11:20:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
But Jefferson wasn't the only architect and more than his opinion counts (or counted). Hence the nature of an amendable constitution and the design of the three branch government.

You are right there friend, but if you want to change part of the constitution the correct way to do it it is via an amendment, not having courts invent rights that are not enumerated and deny ones that are.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Never met you.   You seem a little flighty tho.

I've met both of you, at separate cons, and consider you both as friends I'd have a beer or six with anytime. Speaking of which, has this year's con been announced?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 11:24:02 AM by Edbert »

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #693 on: January 03, 2008, 11:40:04 AM »
The question recurs, does the act, "To suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," trench upon the constitutional rights of the citizen? We think not. The constitution in declaring that, "Every citizen has the right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State," has neither expressly nor by implication, denied to the Legislature, the right to enact laws in regard to the manner in which arms shall be borne. The right guarantied to the citizen, is not to bear arms upon all occasions and in all places, but merely "in defence of himself and the State." The terms in which this provision is phrased seems to us, necessarily to leave with the Legislature the authority to adopt such regulations of police, as may be dictated by the safety of the people and the advancement of public morals. The statute of 1 Wm. and M. while it declares the right of the subject, it refers to Parliament to determine what arms shall be borne and how; while our constitution being silent as to the action of the Legislature, does not divest it of a power over the subject, which pertained to it independent of an express grant.

We do not desire to be understood as maintaining, that in regulating the manner of bearing arms, the authority of the Legislature has no other limit than its own discretion. A statute which, under the pretence of regulating, amounts to a destruction of the right, or which requires arms to be so borne as to render them wholly useless for the purpose of defence, would be clearly (p.617)unconstitutional. But a law which is intended merely to promote personal security, and to put down lawless aggression and violence, and to that end inhibits the wearing of certain weapons, in such a manner as is calculated to exert an unhappy influence upon the moral feelings of the wearer, by making him less regardful of the personal security of others, does not come in collision with the constitution.

The act of the 1st of February, 1839, "To suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," does not either directly, or indirectly tend to divest the citizen of the "right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State;" and is, therefore consistent with the 23d section of the 1 Art. of the constitution.

 Whether the peculiar terms employed in the Kentucky constitution, viz: "That the right of the citizens to bear arms, &c. shall not be questioned," influenced to any extent, the conclusion of the court, that the right could not be regulated, but must remain as it was at the time of its adoption, we are not prepared to say. Yet we are strongly inclined to believe, that the inhibition to question the right, was regarded as more potent than a mere afirmative declaration, intended to secure it to the citizen; and that while the one amounted to a denial of the right to legislate on the subject, the other would tolerate legislation to any extent which did not actually or in its consequences destroy the right to bear arms.



THE STATE V. REID.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #694 on: January 03, 2008, 02:52:03 PM »
bingie... you seem to want to have it both ways.. now you quote a judgement that pretty much says that no one can stop you from "bearing arms" so long as you do it out in the open... in any case.. it most certainly seems to point to an individual right to bear arms.

As I have said.. the state should and could have the right to restrict the manner that guns were carried or kept so long as it did not infringe on your individual right to "keep and bear arms"

The DC problem is that a firearm that is in pieces and locked up with no ammo is not a firearm according (rightly so) to the court and as such.. an infringement.

Some states say... no open carry and others say any open carry but no concealed carry... it is a matter of taste more than anything and no real benifiet has ever been shown in prohibiting one or the other.

with one exception... during wild west days.. where the duel was still popular.. open carry was tantamount to admitting that you were willing to participate in a gunfight..  open carry was prohibited but so far as anyone can tell.. concealed carry was not.   This really did cut down on the number of barroom challenges.

In any case.. we will have to see.   No matter how much the court points out that our INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed tho...  that does not mean that destructive devices or explosives can not be regulated.

My beef with yours and arlos thinking is that neither of you can see past the end of your nose on the thing.    You would downgrade the right to a simple whim of the state.   That was not the original intent nor.. is it a good path to go down.   Turn "the people" into "the state" and there are no more individual rights for anyone or anything.

lazs

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #695 on: January 03, 2008, 03:35:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo..  sorry I upset you.[1]   but..  this thing is getting a little far afield here.   Bsd pretty much seen it..  we try to argue one point and when you and bingie start to lose (you more than him) you go off on a tangent and claim victim status and that your opponents are getting angry at you personally[2]

Never met you.   You seem a little flighty tho.[3]

Bsd asked you to stick to the point..   the point in question was what you thought "collective rights" meant.. it is jibberish and it SEEMS that you admitted that it meant nothing more than each and every citizen.. or... another way of saying individual rights.[4]

You then talked of the constitution being a "living document" and it SEEMS that you agree that the amendment process is the real mechanism for change and not judge activism.. that a judge is only allowed to interpret intent?[5]

you jump to cars.   there are no laws stopping you from buying a car.   You do not have to register it and you can drive it without a licence and as fast as you want..  so long as it is on private property... many many cars have lived out their lives (or ended em) in such a manner.. cars are not a good example.. I am sure the founders would be happy with the way things are so far as cars.[6]

So..  what are we really talking about?   do either you or bingie feel that the DC law is just and not an infringment?  

It is a ban.   you are good with this?  that is why we will not come to an agreement... any ruling that said it was fine for a city to ban guns is no "sensible" gun law.. or do you not agree?[7]

I think you could understand why I am a little confused with yours and bingies opinion and what it means to me..   you both portray yourselves as "sensible" gun owners and profess to believe in the right of Americans to own firearms but...

I can't help wondering what guns I own today you would say I couldn't... I can't help wondering what new law that takes away guns I already own that you would find offensive.   It seems that no ban would be too great for you if you are alright with the DC one.[8]

So tell us.... what gun laws do you think are "sensible" ones and why?[9]

lazs


[1] Sorry you percieve so.

[2] The irony of your claim is not lost.

[3] Likewise.

[4] I cited precident and wrote it out plainly. You seeing it as jibberish isn't my problem.

[5] Seems? The whole "judge activism" buzz phrase is only complaining that every ruling doesn't always flop your way. I've accepted that reality and I accept the system. I even know how to work within it. And I even don't have to resort to reinterpreting and reinventing to complain how broken it is by whinging about activist judges and my superior knowledge of the constitution.

[6] No. I use the example oft given by hyper-"conservatives." The car correlation was never my invention. You can own as many legal guns on private property as you want, as well. Tanks to drive around may require a special process to aquire but you can get them, too. You still seem confused over my acceptance of arms regulations and my supposed desire to take all your guns away from you.

[7] Still weaving straw? Where did you imagine I said the DC situation was the model for utopia? If you could recall (not that you noticed during) I said the DC situation is not a universal. I believe I used the specific phrase "local anomoly." Do you know what "anomoly" means?

[8] You are confused. If I challenge how poorly one puts together their argument and they hop to a rock believing I'm all things bad to them now, well ....

[9] At the "risk" of repeating myself for the umpteenth millionth time: I have no problem with gun ownership. I love guns every bit as much as you do. The feel of raw power in my hand. Thunder at my fingertips. Skill at hitting a fixed or moving target. The fun of fast draw. I also have no problem with gun registration and a background check. "Gun control" (regulation) does not equate to gun elimination. That's the hyperbole that makes some arguments stupid (and some crusaders seem to work really hard at it) before they begin.

A registered gun defends you as well as an unregistered one. The drawback? All I can see is it's easier to track if you (or I) unpredictably crack and shoot a convenience store clerk for taking too long to give us our change. That and you'd actually have to wait for a criminal to use their weapon on someone before taking it away even IF the p.o. had reasonable intent on his side when stopping the possessor prior to the crime ... if the right to guns outweighed the right to life and tranquility. A registered and licensed firearm? No warrants? No prior felonies? Sorry for the inconvenience, sir .... have a nice day.

Background check? I have no problem there. YMMV. Why should I champion the "right" of someone who fails one because it came back that they're a convicted felon or that they're currently under psychiatric care for schizophrenia?

Some rights really aren't practically universal. And do you subscribe to the idea that rights cannot be forfeit when one exhibits criminal or anti-social tendency?

Saved them all for last: :D :cool: :aok ;) :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 04:53:36 PM by Arlo »

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #696 on: January 03, 2008, 03:37:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
How's your hubris on the Dred Scott, Plessy v Furgeson, Lum v Rice?

Bad decisions are bad decisions, no matter who wore the robes of a Supreme Court justice for over a century and had to deal with, debate, and rule on a particular issue.


And opinions on what's a good or bad decision are as worthwhile as opinions on a "good" or "bad" call during the superbowl from your easy chair. Then there's the practicality of recognizing the good thing about having a system that can constantly review itself, even if you don't like the rulings that happen during the process. :)

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #697 on: January 03, 2008, 03:38:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
OH WELL.......................

Had pretty much decided that Arlo and Bing were just trolling and stopped replying.

Still pretty much hold that opinion.



That's the easy and convenient route to take when supplying an actual rational argument gets too hard to handle, I reckon. :D

Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Now he's probably gonna come back and say something in as oily and insulting a manner as he can think of. WHICH IMHO makes him a troller looking to push buttons and create anger or at the very least irritation.

Hey Arlo No Problem I understand. Best to you Sir.


You're welcome. And to you, too, sir. Good luck with the bi-polar issues.
:aok

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #698 on: January 03, 2008, 03:42:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
I've met both of you, at separate cons, and consider you both as friends I'd have a beer or six with anytime. Speaking of which, has this year's con been announced?


N'yet. But I'm all for it. I think there's a petition going around to have MREs at the next one (that's how rumors start .... sometimes more). ;)


Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #699 on: January 03, 2008, 03:45:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
My beef with yours and arlos thinking is that neither of you can see past the end of your nose on the thing.


And I'm sure you're surprised or fail to see that's how you're percieved by many in return. *ShruG*

It's not a crisis and there's too many anxious to connect dots way down the line yet to fret about. I never understood why it rated a minimum of one new thread a week (kudos on coming back to this one and practicing effective recycling). :)

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #700 on: January 03, 2008, 03:49:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
bingie... you seem to want to have it both ways.. now you quote a judgement that pretty much says that no one can stop you from "bearing arms" so long as you do it out in the open... in any case.. it most certainly seems to point to an individual right to bear arms.

As I have said.. the state should and could have the right to restrict the manner that guns were carried or kept so long as it did not infringe on your individual right to "keep and bear arms"

The DC problem is that a firearm that is in pieces and locked up with no ammo is not a firearm according (rightly so) to the court and as such.. an infringement.

Some states say... no open carry and others say any open carry but no concealed carry... it is a matter of taste more than anything and no real benifiet has ever been shown in prohibiting one or the other.

with one exception... during wild west days.. where the duel was still popular.. open carry was tantamount to admitting that you were willing to participate in a gunfight..  open carry was prohibited but so far as anyone can tell.. concealed carry was not.   This really did cut down on the number of barroom challenges.

In any case.. we will have to see.   No matter how much the court points out that our INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed tho...  that does not mean that destructive devices or explosives can not be regulated.

My beef with yours and arlos thinking is that neither of you can see past the end of your nose on the thing.    You would downgrade the right to a simple whim of the state.   That was not the original intent nor.. is it a good path to go down.   Turn "the people" into "the state" and there are no more individual rights for anyone or anything.

lazs



really I was pointing out that gun control started a mere 25 years after the constitution. Its not some recent development to regulate your rights. and the more feared weapon of the time was a knife  rather than a gun.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #701 on: January 03, 2008, 03:52:32 PM »
The country went to pot when they outlawed dueling in the street, man. Those were the days. ;)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What is a Militia?
« Reply #702 on: January 03, 2008, 04:56:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
And opinions on what's a good or bad decision are as worthwhile as opinions on a "good" or "bad" call during the superbowl from your easy chair. Then there's the practicality of recognizing the good thing about having a system that can constantly review itself, even if you don't like the rulings that happen during the process. :)



Nice dodge.

I suppose someone would have been exhibiting hubris if they had questioned the decisions in the Scott, Plessy and Lum cases at the and said that someday the obvious mistakes would be rectified in a later SC decision. Perhaps when Brown v Board of Education was first put on the SC docket, for instance.

I don't mind a system that has appeal to judicial review. However, I do prefer that those who want to change what the Constitution clearly says use the amendment system that is provided rather than making stuff up.

Like attempting to change the Constitution by pretending that a short-barreled shotgun is not a military weapon; that doesn't fit my understanding of a fair review. Of course, neither does rendering a verdict when one side of the case is not represented and not heard.

If some think the 2nd is not an individual right, I'm fine with those folks putting forth a Constitutional amendment removing that right and trying to get it ratified. That would be the correct procedure.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
What is a Militia?
« Reply #703 on: January 03, 2008, 05:18:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Nice dodge.

I suppose someone would have been exhibiting hubris if they had questioned the decisions in the Scott, Plessy and Lum cases at the and said that someday the obvious mistakes would be rectified in a later SC decision. Perhaps when Brown v Board of Education was first put on the SC docket, for instance.

I don't mind a system that has appeal to judicial review. However, I do prefer that those who want to change what the Constitution clearly says use the amendment system that is provided rather than making stuff up.

Like attempting to change the Constitution by pretending that a short-barreled shotgun is not a military weapon; that doesn't fit my understanding of a fair review. Of course, neither does rendering a verdict when one side of the case is not represented and not heard.

If some think the 2nd is not an individual right, I'm fine with those folks putting forth a Constitutional amendment removing that right and trying to get it ratified. That would be the correct procedure.


Dodge? Nope. Hubris does seem to fall within the range of someone having an opinion of themselves as superior in knowledge of Constitutional law than all the SCs to date who've studied, debated and ruled on the Second Amendment, since the matter isn't settled to thier liking, yet.

The SC interprets the validity of legislation as related to the Constitution. That's it's function. That's what it's done, is doing and hopefully will ever do. Ruling on cases brought before them is not "activism" in any way shape or form. Complaining that the rulings aren't what you wanted then harping that the amendment ruled on "clearly states" your opinion on what you want it to mean isn't productively working within the system.

Why don't you help devise a campaign/candidate (or group of) that devote themselves to amending the Constitution (which is also a method of clarifying previous amendments) until it's as clear and unavoidable to the SCOTUS as it "is" to you? Until then, sorry .... we have a Supreme Court that will rule on anything anyone else with "superior knowledge" of the Constitution puts before them.

My admitting I don't have an inclination to present myself as the world's bestest expert on the Constitution and law, possessing the eye that sees the clearest meaning of all things, must be a bad thing ... in some eyes ... but, yaknow, doesn't seem to bother me as much as my challenging your claim to such bothers you.

Carry on. :D

(How's that "dodge?" ;))
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 05:23:02 PM by Arlo »

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
What is a Militia?
« Reply #704 on: January 03, 2008, 05:25:39 PM »
just a small point, the SC has made wrong decisions in the past, and they can be expected to do so in the future.

It is the duty of the people to correct the SC when they make a mistake.