Author Topic: What is a Militia?  (Read 18516 times)

Offline Arlo

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #705 on: January 03, 2008, 11:53:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
just a small point, the SC has made wrong decisions in the past, and they can be expected to do so in the future.

It is the duty of the people to correct the SC when they make a mistake.


Not seein' you pick up on the whole "opinions differ but the real opinions that count in a ruling are those of the Justices nominated by the POTUS and confirmed by the Senate" obvious fact thingie but .....

The people are represented in Congress and that's where legislation happens. I'm generally amused by the complaint that the other side isn't "using the system correctly" when those complaining about it can't seem to figure the system out, themselves. It's not that much a mystery but it's surely a lazy method to complain that "the SC just ain't fair cause they're not listening to how much more I know about the Constitution than they do!" then recommend the side that isn't having issues with the ruling amend the Constitution instead of accepting the ruling as rendered.

;)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 01:09:06 AM by Arlo »

Offline lazs2

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #706 on: January 04, 2008, 12:04:24 PM »
bingie..  again.. you have shifted points.   I have never said that politicians have not tried to enforce gun control from the minute of the first matchlock..   some countries they did a really good job in fact.   that is why our founders put the second amendment into the constitution.

Now.. you seem to be willing to give up one of your (and everyone elses) rights because it is not one of the ones you particularly care about.

england has a "collective rights" model.. if such a thing exists.. they have a "right" to keep and bear arms so long as the government says so.

This worked out ok for them for a pretty long time.   I mean... who in their right mind would "ban" guns?  the brits who thought the politicians would come after their guns were just paranoid right?   I mean... what is the worst that can happen and why fight a few "sensible" gun laws?

You seem to think that our second is made of the same toilet paper that the brits "right to keep and bear arms" is made of..

I certainly hope not.   it would mean all the others are too... it would set a precident for all the amendments that used "the people" to really just mean.. the state.

lazs

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #707 on: January 04, 2008, 03:55:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
bingie..  again.. you have shifted points.   I have never said that politicians have not tried to enforce gun control from the minute of the first matchlock..   some countries they did a really good job in fact.   that is why our founders put the second amendment into the constitution.

Now.. you seem to be willing to give up one of your (and everyone elses) rights because it is not one of the ones you particularly care about.

england has a "collective rights" model.. if such a thing exists.. they have a "right" to keep and bear arms so long as the government says so.

This worked out ok for them for a pretty long time.   I mean... who in their right mind would "ban" guns?  the brits who thought the politicians would come after their guns were just paranoid right?   I mean... what is the worst that can happen and why fight a few "sensible" gun laws?

You seem to think that our second is made of the same toilet paper that the brits "right to keep and bear arms" is made of..

I certainly hope not.   it would mean all the others are too... it would set a precident for all the amendments that used "the people" to really just mean.. the state.

lazs


Laz for the most part I agree with you on the second amendment, just because I can argue for the other side means nada. I dont want them to take your guns from you for the 5th time. I just want them to define the unorganized militia, what ever it is, okay? The law as it is supports it
What you want is for them to just say the unorganized militia is everyone on gods green earth, what you have been saying about it. Neither Side want to fully delete the 2nd or even try to amend it. Thats why I say the Militia is the sweet spot.
 
Okay laz I'll try to shift gears and make your argument for you. Have not researched it yet but I think you can make a better case using other amendments rather than trying to reley on the 5th cir. or emmerson or the 2nd solely...plus so many cases have gone with the collective view and have based there arguments on the same{the history, founders etc} ....so maybe another path or new argument is needed. Like the 4th, 5th, 10th, or 14th or all four. Now just winging it here have to look and see.  


Far as the laws
Toss in  no machine guns and a ban on anything that can be converted in 12 mins to full auto and I will be happy. As I said before, thought should be put into redesign that will not infringe your rights. So maybe that could be mentioned as well.... dadada by the year xxxx guns are to be revised.

Offline Charon

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #708 on: January 04, 2008, 04:45:28 PM »
DC just filed it's brief. It can be downloaded here:

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/petitioners-brief-in-dc-guns-case-now-available/

Haven't read through it yet, but apparently not much new. A discussion on it can be found at THR here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=328612

Charon

Offline Toad

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #709 on: January 04, 2008, 05:04:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Hubris does seem to fall within the range of someone having an opinion of themselves as superior in knowledge of Constitutional law than all the SCs to date
[/b]

I personally find it amusing that so many people think of the Constitution as some cosmicly complicated, inscrutable arcane piece of writing that only some first-in-his-class Harvard law grad that grew up to be an SC justice can understand.

Oh, sure, some issues are really complex. Many others, however, are not.

I think it pays to remember that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written by farmers, merchants and sure, a few lawyers. For the most part they all had far less formal education on fewer subjects than the university grads that frequent this board.

They had one thing though that a lot of people on this board don't have. They had the balls to fight for their freedom from an oppressive government and the brains to devise a better system after they had won that freedom. The unifying aspect of all their divisive debates in creating this government was FREEDOM. Every aspect of their new form of government revolved around providing as much freedom as possible to the individual and as much restraint as possible on government power over the individual.

Bearing that in mind, one is never far wrong in deciding a Constitutional issue with the intent to provide as much freedom to the individual as possible while restraining the power of the government.

Does one need to be "superior in knowledge of Constitutional law" to determine the right decision in simple constitutional issues?

Hardly. If someone told you that Congress had just passed a law prohibiting Catholics from attending mass under penalty of imprisonment, just about any US citizen would realize that as a gross violation of the 1st Amendment before the issue ever reached the SC.

And you don't have to go far into the past to see such issues that have been incorrectly decided by the SC.

Medical marijuana, Raich v. Ashcroft, is one such decision. They found the Feds could take precedence over local marijuana laws based on the Commerce Clause which gives the government the following "limited" power..."to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;".

It's an uncredible, unbelieveable reach to find that growing your own for medical purposes threatens to swell the illicit drug market. It would seem to reduce the numbers of customers, not increase them.

It is an obviously incorrect usurpation of state power by the Feds. The amazing thing is the LIBERAL SC justices, whom you think would be less worried about medical marijuana, supported this government power grab whilst the Conservative judges, those you would think most likely to be favor government control over any illicit drug issue were against it.

Another obviously bad decision was Kelo v City of New London, which gave local government the power to force property owners to sell out and make way for private economic development when officials decide it would benefit the public, even if the property is not blighted and the new project's success is not guaranteed.

Say WHAT?  The framers of the Constitution must have spun in their graves over that one. This is the freedom they fought for? A government that can steal your home, forcibly shifting land from one private owner to another?

Does this follow the intent of more freedom for the individual and restraint on the powers of government? I don't think so and I think that is obvious to even the most casual observer. This is the sort of judicial activism that many decry, that is clearly outside Constitutional intent.

If this be hubris, then it is hubris in the fine tradition of the men that had the audacity to rebel against England and create this experiment in government.

Quote
Why don't you help devise a campaign/candidate (or group of) that devote themselves to amending the Constitution (which is also a method of clarifying previous amendments) until it's as clear and unavoidable to the SCOTUS as it "is" to you?
[/b]

As I mentioned before, Ii believe anyone that takes the time to read the writings of the Founders on firearms, that takes the time to read the history of the 2nd Amendment as it came to ratification, that takes the time to research the meaning of "the people" in the rest of the Constitution comes to the inescapable conclusion that the militia clause is a dependent clause. It can be no other way. All that is need is honesty. There are always those that will attempt to twist simple words, to convince the sheep that white is actually black, that will attempt to twist the Constitution to suit their own purposes. Again, which version of the 2nd gives the individual MORE freedom and restrains government power? It's not that difficult to determine.


Quote
doesn't seem to bother me as much as my challenging your claim to such
[/b]

Doesn't bother me in the least. I don't think I'm the world's best Constitutional scholar. I do, however, think I have the common sense and basic understanding of the English language necessary to read history and interpret a pretty simple statement in the Bill of Rights.

Tell me, does this seem to difficult to understand to you?

Quote
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;


Seems pretty clear to me.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 05:34:41 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline bsdaddict

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #710 on: January 04, 2008, 05:37:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


I personally find it amusing that so many people think of the Constitution as some cosmicly complicated, inscrutable arcane piece of writing that only some first-in-his-class Harvard law grad that grew up to be an SC justice can understand.

Oh, sure, some issues are really complex. Many others, however, are not.

I think it pays to remember that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written by farmers, merchants and sure, a few lawyers. For the most part they all had far less formal education on fewer subjects than the university grads that frequent this board.

They had one thing though that a lot of people on this board don't have. They had the balls to fight for their freedom from an oppressive government and the brains to devise a better system after they had won that freedom. The unifying aspect of all their divisive debates in creating this government was FREEDOM. Every aspect of their new form of government revolved around providing as much freedom as possible to the individual and as much restraint as possible on government power over the individual.

Bearing that in mind, one is never far wrong in deciding a Constitutional issue with the intent to provide as much freedom to the individual as possible while restraining the power of the government.

Does one need to be "superior in knowledge of Constitutional law" to determine the right decision in simple constitutional issues?

Hardly. If someone told you that Congress had just passed a law prohibiting Catholics from attending mass under penalty of imprisonment, just about any US citizen would realize that as a gross violation of the 1st Amendment before the issue ever reached the SC.

And you don't have to go far into the past to see such issues that have been incorrectly decided by the SC.

Medical marijuana, Raich v. Ashcroft, is one such decision. They found the Feds could take precedence over local marijuana laws based on the Commerce Clause which gives the government the following "limited" power..."to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;".

It's an uncredible, unbelieveable reach to find that growing your own for medical purposes threatens to swell the illicit drug market. It would seem to reduce the numbers of customers, not increase them.

It is an obviously incorrect usurpation of state power by the Feds. The amazing thing is the LIBERAL SC justices, whom you think would be less worried about medical marijuana, supported this government power grab whilst the Conservative judges, those you would think most likely to be favor government control over any illicit drug issue were against it.

Another obviously bad decision was Kelo v City of New London, which gave local government the power to force property owners to sell out and make way for private economic development when officials decide it would benefit the public, even if the property is not blighted and the new project's success is not guaranteed.

Say WHAT?  The framers of the Constitution must have spun in their graves over that one. This is the freedom they fought for? A government that can steal your home, forcibly shifting land from one private owner to another?

Does this follow the intent of more freedom for the individual and restraint on the powers of government? I don't think so and I think that is obvious to even the most casual observer. This is the sort of judicial activism that many decry, that is clearly outside Constitutional intent.

If this be hubris, then it is hubris in the fine tradition of the men that had the audacity to rebel against England and create this experiment in government.

[/b]

As I mentioned before, Ii believe anyone that takes the time to read the writings of the Founders on firearms, that takes the time to read the history of the 2nd Amendment as it came to ratification, that takes the time to research the meaning of "the people" in the rest of the Constitution comes to the inescapable conclusion that the militia clause is a dependent clause. It can be no other way. All that is need is honesty. There are always those that will attempt to twist simple words, to convince the sheep that white is actually black, that will attempt to twist the Constitution to suit their own purposes. Again, which version of the 2nd gives the individual MORE freedom and restrains government power? It's not that difficult to determine.


[/b]

Doesn't bother me in the least. I don't think I'm the world's best Constitutional scholar. I do, however, think I have the common sense and basic understanding of the English language necessary to read history and interpret a pretty simple statement in the Bill of Rights.

Tell me, does this seem to difficult to understand to you?

 

Seems pretty clear to me. [/B]
hear hear!  :aok

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #711 on: January 04, 2008, 08:03:25 PM »
ARGUMENT
I. THE SECOND AMENDMENT PROTECTS ONLY MILITIA-RELATED FIREARM RIGHTS.
Almost seventy years ago, this Court held that “[w]ith obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of [the state-regulated militias] the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be inter-preted and applied with that end in view.” Miller, 307 U.S. at 178. The text and history of the Second Amendment confirm that the right it protects is the
12
right to keep and bear arms as part of a well-regulated militia, not to possess guns for private pur-poses. The Second Amendment does not support re-spondent’s claim of entitlement to firearms for self-defense.
A. The Language Of The Entire Amendment Is Naturally Read To Protect The Keeping And Bearing Of Arms Only In Service Of A Well-Regulated Militia.
1. Both clauses of the Second Amendment, read separately or together, establish the Amendment’s ex-clusively military purpose.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, . . . ”
Unique in the Bill of Rights, the Second Amend-ment begins by stating the reason for its existence: to support a “well regulated Militia.” Militias are the state- and congressionally-regulated military forces described in the Militia Clauses (art. I, § 8, cls.15-16). Their function is to safeguard the states and to be available “to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.” Id.; Miller, 307 U.S. at 178; see also U.S. Const. art. II, § 2 (President commands “the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States”), amend. V (cases arising in “the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger” excepted from grand jury requirement).
The words “well regulated” underscore that the “Militia” contemplated by the Framers were organized and trained fighting forces. As Miller explained, a mi-litia is a “body of citizens enrolled for military disci-
13
pline.”

Laz?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 08:32:36 PM by Bingolong »

Offline john9001

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« Reply #712 on: January 04, 2008, 11:30:17 PM »
as i said before the SC is not always right, IE dred scott.

Offline lazs2

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #713 on: January 05, 2008, 11:00:25 AM »
bingie... sorry.. where did you get that arguement?   it is wrong.

If the "well regulated militia" is a reason then..   it is fair to say that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is the purpose.

The reason could be anything..  it could be.. "a profit to gunstores being... "   it matters not.. if you ever want a well regulated militia... you can't infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

No matter how you cut it..  "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" means just what it says.

What do I hope?   I hope that part will come out in the DC decision.. I know that all gun laws will not go away but...

DC is functionally removing the right by not allowing a real firearm.. it is infringing on our right to keep and bear (functional) arms.

I really hope that a city who said.. "you cant carry guns openly in town" would then be forced to say that concealed was allowed.. as you would not be functionally disarmed if you could carry concealed...

By the same token.. if you outlawed handguns and open carry.. your rights would be infringed since you could not functionally carry a long gun concealed.

It is pretty simple stuff and the states have been playing fast and loose with our right to keep and bear arms for decades...

Time to reign em in a bit.

lazs

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #714 on: January 05, 2008, 11:17:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
bingie... sorry.. where did you get that arguement?   it is wrong.

If the "well regulated militia" is a reason then..   it is fair to say that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is the purpose.

The reason could be anything..  it could be.. "a profit to gunstores being... "   it matters not.. if you ever want a well regulated militia... you can't infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

No matter how you cut it..  "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" means just what it says.

What do I hope?   I hope that part will come out in the DC decision.. I know that all gun laws will not go away but...

DC is functionally removing the right by not allowing a real firearm.. it is infringing on our right to keep and bear (functional) arms.

I really hope that a city who said.. "you cant carry guns openly in town" would then be forced to say that concealed was allowed.. as you would not be functionally disarmed if you could carry concealed...

By the same token.. if you outlawed handguns and open carry.. your rights would be infringed since you could not functionally carry a long gun concealed.

It is pretty simple stuff and the states have been playing fast and loose with our right to keep and bear arms for decades...

Time to reign em in a bit.

lazs


Laz... you can go read the whole thing here. I have. I'll reserve comment.
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/petitioners-brief-in-dc-v-heller.pdf
Edit: Charon posted it just a few posts up and I think you should read the whole thing.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 11:27:26 AM by Bingolong »

Offline Toad

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #715 on: January 05, 2008, 11:35:31 AM »
The commentary BBS is fun to read.

Quote
1. They didn't address the QUESTION posed by the Court.
2. They affirmed the right of DC residents to own rifles/shotguns.
3. They affirmed the right of DC residents to have ready-to-use arms in the home, and that their goal was not disarmament.
4. They affirmed that disarmament by government is a "bad thing."
5. They affirmed that military-class weaponry is suitable to the militia.

Anyone wonder why DC counsel for this case was fired after the brief was filed?


Well, it will be interesting and it is long overdue.

More liberty or more government power; time to choose.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #716 on: January 05, 2008, 11:37:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The commentary BBS is fun to read.



Well, it will be interesting and it is long overdue.

More liberty or more government power; time to choose.


What about the militia there Toad? You two swore upside down and backwards it wasnt about it?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #717 on: January 05, 2008, 11:42:19 AM »
Bingolong, I truly am sorry, but I just don't feel you even understand the question posed by the SC. It's not like it hasn't been pointed out in this thread several times though.

You DO realize the counsel for the District's postion was fired after filing the brief with the SC to overturn the lower court's ruling right? The city FIRED him for filing this brief.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 11:44:45 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #718 on: January 05, 2008, 11:44:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Bingolong, I truly am sorry, but I just don't feel you even understand the question posed by the SC. It's not like it hasn't been pointed out in this thread several times though.


that your sorry? yes, did you even read DC's argument Toad?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #719 on: January 05, 2008, 11:45:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You DO realize the counsel for the District's postion was fired after filing the brief with the SC to overturn the lower court's ruling right? The city FIRED him for filing this brief.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!