Author Topic: What is a Militia?  (Read 21879 times)

Offline AKIron

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #585 on: December 31, 2007, 03:22:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Not so much. "Many a prominent" does not a party make. I know more Democrats with guns than Republicans. Which is all I was letting Laz know. Laz once claimed to not be partisan driven and to be more of an independant than I. I'm not seeing it. Nor am I with many here. *ShruG*

You're the one that brought up the opposition voter ID thing. Sounded kooky to me. Now I'm not sure which way you're deciding to go with it. I'm gonna wait until you do. :)


Many may not but a majority might and I think you'll find if you study it for about 10 minutes that the majority of leaders in the democratic party are against voter ID.

I didn't bring it up, someone else did. You claimed ignorance. Ignorance on this rather important and debated topic renders your opinion on political leaders rather worthless imo.



Will save you the trouble of google, just read:

http://www.democrats.org/page/community/post/stevesouthwell/CqpN
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:25:44 PM by AKIron »
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #586 on: December 31, 2007, 03:45:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Many may not but a majority might and I think you'll find if you study it for about 10 minutes that the majority of leaders in the democratic party are against voter ID.

I didn't bring it up, someone else did. You claimed ignorance. Ignorance on this rather important and debated topic renders your opinion on political leaders rather worthless imo.



Will save you the trouble of google, just read:

http://www.democrats.org/page/community/post/stevesouthwell/CqpN


"Political leaders" was someone else's issue. And they (Laz) were convinced it wasn't just leaders. It's a "party agenda." I provided examples of even politicians who weren't out to take away Laz's guns. Laz still is scared to death Democrats, in general, want nothing more .... besides, perhaps, more crack mothers.

That is what I don't take seriously. If you're expecting me to because you're convinced by hyperbolic rhetoric, it's not really my problem or issue. All I offered was some additional perspective. You're attempt to marginalize it didn't make it disappear. :)

Thanks for the link, btw. Guessin' my state (your's too, yes?) is unique in that I've always been required to show my voter's registration card to vote. Kinda thought it was a nation-wide thing. Never met a Democrat who had a problem with it. As far as drivers licenses go, Texas also offers IDs for those who don't drive. So yeah, citizenship papers to be required on your person is not only a redundant thing, it's a bit of a disconcerting thing. If there's already a capability in place that doesn't require such redundancy then what's it's real purpose? And what's the cost? Isn't that always a part of discussion over legislation creating additional bureaucracy? The I.D. may be offered to all, free of charge, but you and I know that bit of redundant bureaucracy will come with a pricetag. Besides, if you're into conspiracy theories about the government wanting to take away everyone's guns then this additional bit of bureaucratic control of the populance should have you even more up in arms.

:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 04:08:22 PM by Arlo »

Offline bj229r

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #587 on: December 31, 2007, 05:21:27 PM »
OHHHhh very well Arlo:
link
Quote
In a vote of 228 to 196, the House Wednesday approved a bill that requires Americans to show proof of citizenship in order to vote, but Democrats said the measure amounts to a Republican voter suppression bill.

The Federal Election Integrity Act of 2006 (H.R. 4844), also known as the Voter ID Act, would take effect in 2010 and require voters to present a photo ID that could not have been obtained without proof of U.S. citizenship.

Quote
But Democrats were less than pleased with the bill's passage. House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer of Maryland said the bill is "tantamount to a 21st century poll tax."

"It will disenfranchise large numbers of legal voters," the Associated Press quoted Hoyer as saying.

Speaking on the House floor Wednesday prior to the vote, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California said that in approving the measure, her colleagues have undermined the "right to vote" and "our democracy." The bill would also disenfranchise voters, she said.

"Though the right to vote is the foundation of our democracy, the bill we debate today would in effect disenfranchise millions of American voters: the elderly, African Americans, Asian Americans, Latinos, Native Americans, people with disabilities; and the list goes on," Pelosi said.

She noted that more than a month ago, the president signed into law the Voting Rights Act Reauthorization. "We overcame many obstacles, even for the reauthorization of that legislation, to affirm the most precious right in our democracy -- the right to vote," Pelosi said.

"As the NAACP has said, this bill 'would disenfranchise many of the very citizens that the VRA [Voting Rights Act] is designed to protect.' And the Republicans call that integrity. I don't think so," Pelosi added.

Hastert responded that "the foundation of democracy is sealed in the promise of fair voting for the American people."

"I am disappointed that Leader Pelosi and 191 Democrats voted against the Voter ID Act and do not support a fair election process that our nation expects," Hastert said.

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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #588 on: December 31, 2007, 05:50:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
OHHHhh very well Arlo:
link
 



Already been covered, bj. Yeah, `bout as "neccessary" as Homeland Security (not much). Voter's registration plus a picture ID pretty well has that covered. No need for a fear-driven additional bureaucratic "proof to voters a certain political party knows how to keep the nation safer or illegal immigrants from voting" circus show. So yeah. Turns out it wasn't as kooky as ya'll were trying to make it sound and I don't have a problem with the way the Dem side of the aisle responded, afterall. But thank you ... too .. for bringing this crisis to my attention. Feel free to read my prior responses to it. :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 05:52:40 PM by Arlo »

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #589 on: December 31, 2007, 07:21:44 PM »
Quote
The left doesn't want voter's registration and picture I.D. shown a the polls? Or is it a specific kook or subset that want this? News to me.
Quote
Kinda thought it was a nation-wide thing. Never met a Democrat who had a problem with it.

You've obviously never met any members of the House;)

 btw, Homeland Security was a recommendation of the vaunted 911 Commission, (and opposed by most conservatives) and thus worshiped by most Libs. Next year Hillary will get a chance to put her imprint on it, perhaps you will like it better:aok
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 07:25:50 PM by bj229r »
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #590 on: December 31, 2007, 07:29:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r

You've obviously never met any members of the House;)


Actually .... you be quite wrong in that presumption. :D

And you've "met" even one who has a problem with voter registration cards as already in use? How odd. Or are you basing your response purely on the article about the Dems not seeing a need for a whole new indentification card? You know .... what you're convinced is "evidence" to counter my statement? You really didn't read what I wrote that closely or even care, did you? Afterall, agenda needs no distraction that isn't built in to serve it's own purpose. ;)



And I love the non-partisan, unbiased finger-pointing response to the neccessity of the DHS (apparently you don't seem too impressed with it, either, but gawrsh a concession of any kind is too much a sign of weakness - ahem). `Cause it's all about attacking the Democratic party. Nothing more important. ;)


:D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 07:47:48 PM by Arlo »

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #591 on: December 31, 2007, 08:01:01 PM »
If voter registration cards had a state-issued picture ID, nah, I wouldn't mind. I've lived in 2 states, neither of which has that--and VA doesn't even ask for ID at the poll

DHS--Nah, HATE it, as it is nada but another level of bureaucracy to get in the way--(though to be fair, it hasn't been tested yet, as far as we know)....And there ARE more important things than attacking the Democratic party, I just can't think of any at the moment...wait, I know...wife made brownies:aok
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #592 on: December 31, 2007, 08:06:05 PM »
Driver's license bureau broken in Va.? (Not that I'm aware of.) So, wouldn't adopting Texas' policy of asking for a VR card and some form of picture ID to back it up be easier than creating citizenship documentation? I mean, you don't wanna register your handgun .... why do you want the state to require you carrying papers to prove you have rights? Not seeing a Democrat party fault in that.

And brownies rock. Someone loves you. :D

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #593 on: December 31, 2007, 08:14:43 PM »
Ya miss the point--(yes, she Is cool, and cute) The House Dems are saying that requiring Proof of ID to vote is somehow keeping the brothers down...and EVERY state's dmv. as far as I know, has an official ID that can be used by folks who don't drive, but Peolosi, et al, are saying that even requiring THAT ID is akin to suppressing the vote of minorities, as they obviously can't be expected to get to the dmv every 4 years or so to renew an ID. To shut down that argument, I'd be happy to have a program to give afore-mentioned poor folks free ID's at said dmv establishments. (The unemployed should be forced to endure the same crap as the rest of us)..Mebbe they could get jobs there
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #594 on: December 31, 2007, 08:44:31 PM »
I didn't really get the racial prejudice part of the argument, myself. Yes, they could argue that nobody should have to pay a poll tax and that it affects the poor more than the rich but the $15.00 fee for a Texas I.D. does indeed fly in the face of that argument *and* the right to vote is supposedly guaranteed for *everyone* (income/race not a factor to justify a poll tax of any kind - and I mean that both ways).

But I don't get the neccessity of carrying citizenship documentation to prevent voting fraud, either, when it would be more efficient to just reimburse the states for services they can readily provide. From a pure practical and fiscal standpoint, the tools and system to accomplish what they seek is in place. There's no need for yet *more* bureaucratic ballast.

Add the additional bit that everytime I've voted they stamp my VRC with a small stamp saying "voted" so it can't be passed onto someone else for them to use (and they check off my name on the rolls). I suppose someone could steal my wallet and attempt to use the card to vote, for some odd reason. But the VRC also has my address - just like the DL. Gotta vote in the right ballot place or they send you over to it. Would be an interesting meeting - me there to try to vote without my VRC but with proof I'm who I am and they with my VRC and no photo proof. ;)

What's the accomplishment desired? What's the neccessity? Where does one slot the priority for such a perceived crisis? There's a lot more rotten meat on Congress's plate right now, even if this is a distraction worth attacking political rivals over.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 09:31:21 PM by Arlo »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #595 on: January 01, 2008, 10:26:10 AM »


Taurus Judge: .45 LC or .410 shotshell. Completely legal.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #596 on: January 01, 2008, 10:34:20 AM »
bingie..  in miller the court asked if a sawn off shotgun of less than 18 inches would have any use as a martial weapon.  they were told no by the government lackies.    The truth is that they had been used in wars and uprisings around the world since the first shotguns.  the south made extensive use of em in the civil war.   The act also forbade full automatic weapons but this was never deceided on.

And that is the real lesson of Miller.. that the SC are whimps on the second.   that they can and will make very narrow decisions so as not to have to really hear on the second.   I think that is what will happen here.

Unlike you and arlo..  I don't think that they will say that "the People" means the state or that the state means the people.   I don't think they will use the useless newspeak term "collective right" since it is meaningless.

I don't think they are quite ready yet to turn the constitution into toilet paper and get "people" to upset...  

I also don't think that they are ready to say that all gun laws are an infringement of the right of the people to keep and bear arms.. they will avoid that.

I believe that they will rule that any total ban is an infringement and that a gun that is all apart or without ammo is no real gun at all and is therfore a "ban" and an infringement on rights.

Probly all that will happen for the next few decades is that the current trend of democrat mayors to ban firearms in the home, or.. make them useless (locked or stored without ammo say)..... will cease.

lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #597 on: January 01, 2008, 10:36:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
What's the neccessity? Where does one slot the priority for such a perceived crisis? There's a lot more rotten meat on Congress's plate right now, even if this is a distraction worth attacking political rivals over.


Necessity? You question the necessity of having only citizens vote on issues that affect citizens? If it isn't necessary, why not just have online internet polls open to anyone in any country and use that to decide our issues? Clearly, one of the essential elements of nationhood is having the citizens...and ONLY the citizens... of that nation determine their own fate.

Priority? Relatively high, I'd think. Dealing with the rotten meat on the Congressional plate and palate requires some citizen participation, leadership and guidance. (As in throw the incompetent greedy bass turds out.)

Now, does it require a tattoo on the forehead? Nope. I think the elements of such a system already exist. You should have to register to vote and provide proof of citizenship at that time. You should have to have your VR card to vote and it should be marked at the polling place so you can't vote in the same election twice. You should have to have a government issued picture ID (IE: driver's license) to verify that you are in fact the person to whom the VR card was issued. I think it's reasonable that whatever picture ID card is used should require proof of citizenship to be issued. If you are a non-citizen getting a driver's license, that's OK. Your DL should just be clearly marked as non-citizen.

I think these things are reasonable and I think they are do-able and pretty low cost considering the elements already exist.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #598 on: January 01, 2008, 11:36:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Necessity? You question the necessity of having only citizens vote on issues that affect citizens? If it isn't necessary, why not just have online internet polls open to anyone in any country and use that to decide our issues?


If that would favor the democrats instead of the republicans I'm sure that's exactly what the democrats would be pushing for.
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Offline Bingolong

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« Reply #599 on: January 01, 2008, 11:45:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


Taurus Judge: .45 LC or .410 shotshell. Completely legal.


Nice gun what does it have to do with this?

Nice pachmyers when did they make those? 1939?