Author Topic: A20 Flight Envelope in AcesHigh (Read 1747 times)

humble · « **Reply #30 on:** November 29, 2007, 03:52:40 PM »

This is a pretty typical type of attack from a very good 109 driver...

I've survived similiar attacks from K's with multiple 30mm strikes. This clip is a few months old so i've refined things a bit but still the reality is i'm not gonna get a lick in without taking one.

I didnt hit the small window I created but it was there. Even after the A-20 lost an engine and Blauk switched off to a bigger threat the A-20 still had the ability to engage. I've flown the A-20 on one engine with 1/2 the control surfaces gone and it still handles reasonably well...

left for dead or crippled

Your making blanket statements that simply arent really justified. Any fighter has a clear advantage vs an A-20...but few pilots have a full understanding of the A-20's capabilities...and even if they do you cant escape the reality that it can absorb a huge amount of lead and keep on flying. And if your close enough to shoot the A-20 you'll be close enough for the A-20 to shoot back.

humble · « **Reply #31 on:** November 29, 2007, 03:56:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
so the A-20 should be referred to as a Fighter/Bomber? Is that how it is listed in game?

The A-20G we have is not really a bomber. It's a strike aircraft...while its not a fighter it had some reasonable air to air capability and was capable of reasonable ACM.

Karnak · « **Reply #32 on:** November 29, 2007, 05:39:33 PM »

humble,

It is dead meat against those fighters.

As it, utterly helpless, cannot turn the fight.

Now, if the pilot in the A-20G is better to some degree that changes, but that you shot down those fighters means nothing. Most players in AH are not very good. Heck, I'm not very good and I cannot imagine how I could lose to an equal or somewhat better pilot with me in the Spit/Ki-84 or what have you and the other guy in the A-20G.

I can see me losing in a Mossie, though I'd have the advantage.

(FYI, to the best of my knowledge my career kills/deaths against the Bf110 in the Mossie stands at lots of kills and only one death, and that was a proximity kill it got on me after I overspeeded and tore my elevators off).

Widewing · « **Reply #33 on:** November 29, 2007, 05:42:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
Sounds about right humble, question is: Does the A20 FM have a serious discrepency in vertical performance when compared to other FMs of comparable machines in game?

Momentum.... Mass traveling at a velocity is what determines initial zoom climbing ability. A-20s have a considerable mass. It has nothing to do with the FM, but everything to do with elementary physics.

Take a 109K-4 and an A-20G. Have them flying side-by-side at 325 mph. On cue, pull both into a 60 degree climb. Initially, the A-20 will surge ahead. However, once its mass and gravity overcome the stored energy, it must rely on power to prolong the climb. Eventually the 109 will begin to close. Since neither can sustain this climb angle both will finally fall out of the climb.

In combat, the A-20 pilot can utilize his potential (stored) energy to convert into a stunning zoom climb. This is why I have advocated NOT trying to rope a Co-E A-20. You can't do it... If it's within gun range, it will hose you good for trying.

The one big problem for the A-20 is its poor acceleration. So, once you bleed one down, you can then maneuver effectively in the vertical against the A-20.

God knows how many "BS" comments A-20 drivers have received from their victims... I've gotten a few myself. The bottom line is: Don't underestimate any aircraft or its pilot. If you do, you'll get careless and a hot stick, even in a clunker like an TBM or Boston, will beat you up.

My regards,

Widewing

Yeager · « **Reply #34 on:** November 29, 2007, 06:07:59 PM »

It has nothing to do with the FM, but everything to do with elementary physics.
====
Dont you agree that it is through the FM designed by HTC that the AcesHigh A20 derives its in-game performance? We are talking not about the behavior of a genuine flying machine sitting on a tarmac somewhere, engines ready for takeoff, at least I am not, we are talking about the way this particular FM performs in-game when compared to other similar sized, weighted and engined FMs.

The only reason I bring this up is because I have seen this particular FM perform in a way that simply is not compatible with other similar FMs as I have experienced, at least thats what I am talking about.

Do not consider this a whine or a complaint. I do not put the question fourth in that framing. It is a question to see if others have experienced the same thing. I freely admit that this particular FM might be right on the money, comparatively speaking. If it is, wow. Nice performance.

Now excuse me while I go and try to bone up in the thing

Karnak · « **Reply #35 on:** November 29, 2007, 06:46:24 PM »

In the absence of power being added or drag from an atmosphere a feather and an anvil moving away from a gravity source at 250fps will reach the same exact distance from the gravity source before falling back towards the gravity source. If you add a slight amount of thrust away from the gravity source, say, 1/5th the weight of the feather for the feather and 4/5ths the weight of the feather on the anvil and the feather will reach a much higher altitude than the anvil.

Now, add an atmosphere and the anvil will reach a much greater altitude due to the feather's grossly disproportionate drag/mass ratio.

So the question is, what are the mass, thrust and drag numbers for, say, a Bf109K-4 and A-20G. I suspect that the drag/mass ratio actually favors the Bf109 as bombers tend to have large structures (drag) that are relatively empty (low weight).

humble · « **Reply #36 on:** November 29, 2007, 07:06:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
humble,

It is dead meat against those fighters.

As it, utterly helpless, cannot turn the fight.

Now, if the pilot in the A-20G is better to some degree that changes, but that you shot down those fighters means nothing. Most players in AH are not very good. Heck, I'm not very good and I cannot imagine how I could lose to an equal or somewhat better pilot with me in the Spit/Ki-84 or what have you and the other guy in the A-20G.

I can see me losing in a Mossie, though I'd have the advantage.

(FYI, to the best of my knowledge my career kills/deaths against the Bf110 in the Mossie stands at lots of kills and only one death, and that was a proximity kill it got on me after I overspeeded and tore my elevators off).

Yes and no....

I've got a clip of me vs Spatula (as well as his end) posted elsewhere. This is a very good cat and mouse fight where he's careful to not get sucked in and i'm bzy wagging my tail trying to draw him in to a true angles fight. In the end its a draw with him just about bingo ammo and me just about bingo spare parts....

One of those fights that is just so much fun you dont care if you end up winning or losing....

I've also got a clip of me vs grmreaper where he just waded in and got thumped in a pony....

My K/D is normally 1.~/1 so I'm the ball almost as often as i'm the bat...but I've had countless good fights against very good sticks in there favored rides vs the A-20. The A-20 has a remarkably good FM overall and is capable of exceptional "smoothness". It's got alot of subtle ability even in a furball type of enviornment.

I film alot of stuff and 99%+ just gets erased without even me looking at it. I was looking for one clip and peeked at this earlier today. normally I never post this stuff since I dont see it as really helpful.

I'm stuck in the lower end of fight moving over our base and end up at the bottom of a mostly red enviornment with a ki-84 stalking me. I'm busy trying to stay alive and work the Ki-84. Just before I finally get the ki (and Steve cherries me) I have to evade a FQ shot from a tiffie and either evade the ki just before or after...and dont think I take any real hits from either [going from memory].

WW constantly remarks on the importance and value of "smooth" in a fight and how smooth can translate to fast. The A-20 is big, lumbering and cant stack up to much of anything when we look at raw data. But I dont think you can really quantify the effect of smooth on a fight. The A-20 is on rails thru 99% of its FM....

I'm constantly suprised by what its capable of, only reason I stay with it so much...I've never found an other plane with such subtleties that are repeatable. At times I feel like its got shields and a cloaking device...

More and more I'm dieing to the guy I didnt see {steve here}, regardless of the numbers...stuck on the bottom

thrila · « **Reply #37 on:** November 29, 2007, 07:12:17 PM »

I would like to see your film versus grm just for the "comments" on 200.

Karnak · « **Reply #38 on:** November 29, 2007, 07:23:42 PM »

humble,

I am not talking about a multi-con fight with unknown skills. In a duel the Ki-84 can saddle up and it does not matter a whit if you take it to pure angles, the Ki-84 will just stay on your rear. Same with the Spitfire and F4U. And others I am sure. There is nothing the A-20G can do to shake those fighters, given similar skill levels.

As to the zoom, I don't think the A-20G should be outzooming much. If it was just mass the Lancaster should be good at zooming too, and it surely, and correctly, is not.

humble · « **Reply #39 on:** November 29, 2007, 08:29:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by thrila
I would like to see your film versus grm just for the "comments" on 200.

here you go

theNewB · « **Reply #40 on:** December 07, 2007, 08:17:58 AM »

all I have to say is A-20 (and Boston) are exceptional for their size and most pilots, vets or not, underestimate it's capabilities when engaging an A-20.... unless its loaded with fuel and bombs then your just gonna die

Tilt · « **Reply #41 on:** December 07, 2007, 09:22:17 AM »

I fly the Boston quite often as a strike ac ( typically hitting VH's and radar ata target field) . Its fast for a formation bomber so you can get the job done via F6 with little fuss.

Its a fun ac to fight in as its flapped high yo yo is cruelly tight and yet very stable......... catching many folk by surprise.

Its got no guns though and ends up being more entertainment than actual victory.

I cannot make the A20G do the same manouvres as the Boston. It basically feels much "heavier".

humble · « **Reply #42 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:15:34 AM »

To me the A-20 is even better in the high yoyo's since it can carry more speed at the start of the fight and seems more nimble through much of the flight envelope. The Boston has smaller tanks and/or goes thru fuel faster. I literally ran out of gas on 2 of 3 hops in the MWA (only time I've flown it recently). I'd gues that the reason the A-20 seems so sluggish is that you've got alot more gas then you would in the boston. I normally fly the A-20 "clean" with 50% fuel. By the time I get where I'm going I'm thru the aux fuel. Once the A-20 gets down to about 1/3 showing on the main tanks it hits its sweet spot. I can normally RTB on very little gas (if i'm still alive) at reduced rpm's...

Feep25th · « **Reply #43 on:** December 12, 2007, 06:09:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by WMLute
The most you wanna dive from is 7k ish. Any more than that and you risk ripping the wings off.

well if you do you can still fly ti quite easily but if you lose more than the wings up to the fuelsalage than your dead try to kep it fro wingtips to engines.

Squire · « **Reply #44 on:** December 12, 2007, 06:23:14 PM »

Like any a/c in AH, an experienced hand can get something out of an A-20G or a Boston III and have some success with it.

A-20G vs the Mosquito, the Mossie should prevail, but thats a case for the combatants to decide.

I have tried the A-20G in "fighter mode" from time to time, it can be fun.