Author Topic: Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?  (Read 5073 times)

Offline Lord ReDhAwK

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 12:58:21 PM »
Oh man.  I really shouldnt even write this but here goes...

Retired Army here.  Combat Arms.  Infantry.

Combat Arms involve more than just the Infantry.  You have Tankers and Artillery that also fall within this realm.  However, all 3 of the arms of ground combatants are in the dirt, more or less, the same in-theatre.

Women should not be allowed in Combat Arms IMHO for the following reasons (and none of them are because of being raped by their foxhole buddy...)

1.  Physical ability.  The female endurance in a field enviornment is hindered by muscle mass that are not a concern for a typical male.  It is quite common in a field training excercise or combat in theatre to carry a ruck sack with a full combat load.  A combat load can be easily in excess of 100lbs depending on ones particular job.  Add to that 100lb rucksack the weight of the weapon that person carries.  A gunner for an M-60 machine-gun is responsible for carrying the gun itself (23 lbs) and a belt of ammo (8 lbs.)  That will be 31 lbs of added weight to the already 100+ lbs of rucksack.  Now, she would be responsible for carrying 131 lbs on her back and shoulders for the duration of her movement while keeping pace with the rest of here Platoon, Squad, Team, whatever.  If she is a member of an Airborne unit, add 40 lbs of weight for the parachute, standing in the door to jump from 10 minutes to 30 minutes, if the pilot needs to make another pass on the drop zone.  So that is 171 lbs of weight which practically doubles the typical female body weight.  Btw, there are much heavier weapon systems carried by the typical combat arms soldier.  Lets not even get into Mortar Systems :)

2.  Sanitary needs.  Argue it all you want, the female soldier has sanitary needs beyond a male.  Cleanliness of ones-self is critical in combat enviornments for the longevity of the soldier.  It is not uncommon in the field or combat to miss your combat trans (resupply convoys.)  A female not being able to keep her body even somewhat clean can suffer infection or medical condition that cannot be dealt with by the attached combat medic.  This would require a medivac procedure to take this soldier to the rear and that ability is not always available at the time its needed.  So you have now amputated yourself as a unit because it will take 3 other soldiers to make up for the one soldier that is now combat ineffective...

1 to take her crew served weapon...
1 to carry her personal equipment...
1 to carry her by litter of Firemans Carry to the rally point.

3.  Special Operations.  The benefit of Combat Arms is the ability to join Special Operations Teams.  The very nature of a D.O.D. (Department of Defence) team is to be placed in a hostile enviornment with little to zero support from the rear in your mission.  Be in the field on an operation for 6 months taking from the enviornment you are placed in.  These teams operate in a squad sized element (13 man team) to individual or 2 man teams.  You could not possibly have females as members of Combat Arms and not give them the opportunity to strive for that Ranger or Special Forces tab!

4.  Sexual Assault.  Alright,  Lets talk about it.  But not from the friendly soldier.  Lets talk about the enemy.  Lets say that the female Ranger is captured by the enemy.  The VERY real scenario of rape as a means of extracting information from the soldier is not a made-up means of argumnent.  If one Army is fighting another, one could expect a certain amount of compliance to the Geneva Convention.  However, the current battles we fight and will continue to fight in the future are not against a modern Army.  They are against bands of fighters (Al Quada, Taliban) who do not follow the doctrine of the Geneva Convention.  The female soldier in general, let alone a combat arms soldier, are at risk in this way.  Now, put the female in direct harms way as a member of a Combat Arms unit and you have amplified, astronomically, the direct threat to the female combatant.  Imagine her on guard duty, snatched, interrogated, raped, and THEN killed and placed in an area for that unit to find the body.  Now demoralization will set in to that element (unit.)

There are more issues than this that I could write about. However, it is incredibly close to work time and I have to get ready.  I will end it by saying these closing things....

I have been to several Professional Development Schools in the military and the examples that I have written here are part of the standard military doctine taught to senior NCOs (Non-Commissioned Officers) at those schools.

The intelligence of the female to plan and execute the battle utilizing Combat Arms has never nor will ever be the argument.  It is the physical limitation of the soldier that is the debate.

I have certainly met and served with ladies that would be termed the "exception to the rule."  However, when changing doctrine for Combat Arms, the change will be made for the masses, not the individual.  Until the day that the female is recruited on the reccomendaion of her Football Coach, no ladies in Combat Arms will continue to be standard doctrine in the US Military.

Just the opinion of one who served.  Be gentle :)

ReDhAwK
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Offline AWMac

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 01:02:39 PM »
Quote
in the US Military.


The only thing that made sense.

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Offline Jackal1

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 01:06:24 PM »
It must be rehash week.
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Offline Tigeress

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 01:06:27 PM »
Hi Lord,

Ever serve in combat with a woman?

I might point out the thread is about women working in a combat zone, not specifically as a front line ground combatant.

American women have served in US combat zones during and since the American War of Independence.

On the issue of feminine cleanliness, heaven forbid that we women use whatever is avaliable. We managed to survive before the introduction of commercial tampons during the late 1920's to early 1930's.

Bottom line... when a country does not have enough male combatants to defend itself, female combatants go to war; case in point: Russia during WWII and Israel present day.

TIGERESS

Edit: I am not sure whether this thread is intentional trolling and flame baiting or not. That is why I asked Blue his age.

Quote
Originally posted by Lord ReDhAwK
Oh man.  I really shouldnt even write this but here goes...

Retired Army here.  Combat Arms.  Infantry.

Combat Arms involve more than just the Infantry.  You have Tankers and Artillery that also fall within this realm.  However, all 3 of the arms of ground combatants are in the dirt, more or less, the same in-theatre.

Women should not be allowed in Combat Arms IMHO for the following reasons (and none of them are because of being raped by their foxhole buddy...)

1.  Physical ability.  The female endurance in a field enviornment is hindered by muscle mass that are not a concern for a typical male.  It is quite common in a field training excercise or combat in theatre to carry a ruck sack with a full combat load.  A combat load can be easily in excess of 100lbs depending on ones particular job.  Add to that 100lb rucksack the weight of the weapon that person carries.  A gunner for an M-60 machine-gun is responsible for carrying the gun itself (23 lbs) and a belt of ammo (8 lbs.)  That will be 31 lbs of added weight to the already 100+ lbs of rucksack.  Now, she would be responsible for carrying 131 lbs on her back and shoulders for the duration of her movement while keeping pace with the rest of here Platoon, Squad, Team, whatever.  If she is a member of an Airborne unit, add 40 lbs of weight for the parachute, standing in the door to jump from 10 minutes to 30 minutes, if the pilot needs to make another pass on the drop zone.  So that is 171 lbs of weight which practically doubles the typical female body weight.  Btw, there are much heavier weapon systems carried by the typical combat arms soldier.  Lets not even get into Mortar Systems :)

2.  Sanitary needs.  Argue it all you want, the female soldier has sanitary needs beyond a male.  Cleanliness of ones-self is critical in combat enviornments for the longevity of the soldier.  It is not uncommon in the field or combat to miss your combat trans (resupply convoys.)  A female not being able to keep her body even somewhat clean can suffer infection or medical condition that cannot be dealt with by the attached combat medic.  This would require a medivac procedure to take this soldier to the rear and that ability is not always available at the time its needed.  So you have now amputated yourself as a unit because it will take 3 other soldiers to make up for the one soldier that is now combat ineffective...

1 to take her crew served weapon...
1 to carry her personal equipment...
1 to carry her by litter of Firemans Carry to the rally point.

3.  Special Operations.  The benefit of Combat Arms is the ability to join Special Operations Teams.  The very nature of a D.O.D. (Department of Defence) team is to be placed in a hostile enviornment with little to zero support from the rear in your mission.  Be in the field on an operation for 6 months taking from the enviornment you are placed in.  These teams operate in a squad sized element (13 man team) to individual or 2 man teams.  You could not possibly have females as members of Combat Arms and not give them the opportunity to strive for that Ranger or Special Forces tab!

4.  Sexual Assault.  Alright,  Lets talk about it.  But not from the friendly soldier.  Lets talk about the enemy.  Lets say that the female Ranger is captured by the enemy.  The VERY real scenario of rape as a means of extracting information from the soldier is not a made-up means of argumnent.  If one Army is fighting another, one could expect a certain amount of compliance to the Geneva Convention.  However, the current battles we fight and will continue to fight in the future are not against a modern Army.  They are against bands of fighters (Al Quada, Taliban) who do not follow the doctrine of the Geneva Convention.  The female soldier in general, let alone a combat arms soldier, are at risk in this way.  Now, put the female in direct harms way as a member of a Combat Arms unit and you have amplified, astronomically, the direct threat to the female combatant.  Imagine her on guard duty, snatched, interrogated, raped, and THEN killed and placed in an area for that unit to find the body.  Now demoralization will set in to that element (unit.)

There are more issues than this that I could write about. However, it is incredibly close to work time and I have to get ready.  I will end it by saying these closing things....

I have been to several Professional Development Schools in the military and the examples that I have written here are part of the standard military doctine taught to senior NCOs (Non-Commissioned Officers) at those schools.

The intelligence of the female to plan and execute the battle utilizing Combat Arms has never nor will ever be the argument.  It is the physical limitation of the soldier that is the debate.

I have certainly met and served with ladies that would be termed the "exception to the rule."  However, when changing doctrine for Combat Arms, the change will be made for the masses, not the individual.  Until the day that the female is recruited on the reccomendaion of her Football Coach, no ladies in Combat Arms will continue to be standard doctrine in the US Military.

Just the opinion of one who served.  Be gentle :)

ReDhAwK
82nd Airborne
Berline Brigade
US Army Infantry School Instructor
3rd Ranger Battalion
2ID
3ID (Mechanized)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 01:30:23 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Lord ReDhAwK

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 01:12:14 PM »
Neg Tigress.  Trained with several but no women were part of any unit I was ever a member of, being Combat Arms.

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Offline texasmom

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 01:26:10 PM »
I think it's a bad idea. And it's not that women are lesser than men.  But the interaction between men & women ALWAYS takes away from the mission.  ALWAYS. I'll post longer on that today, I'm sure.

In fact, I'd go even further to say that our military was better off back 40 years ago when women were discharged upon becoming pregnant.
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Offline 68Wooley

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 01:31:35 PM »
As Laser said, as long as physical and mental standards aren't being lowered or exceptions being made, what's the problem?

Lord RedHawk makes the statement that womens' physical endurance is a problem. I don't understand that (and I've never military or physical education training so I may be missing something). Surely there is a level of physical endurance required by all reqruits - male and female. If you don't make the grade, you wash out. Where does gender come in to it?

Also, sexual assault as a means of torture when captured may happen, but is that any more or less likely to make your unit lose moral than - say - seeing your captured buddy decapitated on Al Jazeera. I reckon there's a level of barabrism after which the details don't matter.

As I said, I've no relevent experience in this so I may be missing something.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 01:36:22 PM by 68Wooley »

Offline Tigeress

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2007, 01:43:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by texasmom
I think it's a bad idea. And it's not that women are lesser than men.  But the interaction between men & women ALWAYS takes away from the mission.  ALWAYS. I'll post longer on that today, I'm sure.

In fact, I'd go even further to say that our military was better off back 40 years ago when women were discharged upon becoming pregnant.


I agree, pregnant women should excuse themselves from a combat zone.

Saying women should not serve in the military because of interaction with men isn't something I find I can agree with.

If some men can't keep their sexual instincts under control, who's fault is that?

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Offline texasmom

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2007, 01:50:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
I agree, pregnant women should excuse themselves from a combat zone.

Saying women should not serve in the military because of interaction with men isn't something I find I can agree with.

If some men can't keep their sexual instincts under control, who's fault is that?

TIGERESS


It's not just sexual interaction.  It's the overall relationships between men & women that is the problem.  

And I think they should be able to serve, but definitely not in combat.  Yes, that would mean removing them from those same functions in garrison (which in reality is just preparation for the next deployment).  

There are plenty of women who do make the grade, and plenty of wimpy whiney men who don't.  But on the whole, I'm all for going back to an all male military.

*edit* it's not just the men who can't keep their fly zipped.  The women have a fly on their pants now too, and they don't keep theirs zipped either.

*edit again* as for the pregnancy, I'd remove them from the military entirely.  Discharge them; not remove them from the combat zone.  Pregnancy already puts them in a medically non-deployable status.  I'd discharge them from the military entirely.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 01:52:34 PM by texasmom »
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Offline Tigeress

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2007, 01:57:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by texasmom
It's not just sexual interaction.  It's the overall relationships between men & women that is the problem.  

And I think they should be able to serve, but definitely not in combat.  Yes, that would mean removing them from those same functions in garrison (which in reality is just preparation for the next deployment).  

There are plenty of women who do make the grade, and plenty of wimpy whiney men who don't.  But on the whole, I'm all for going back to an all male military.

*edit* it's not just the men who can't keep their fly zipped.  The women have a fly on their pants now too, and they don't keep theirs zipped either.

*edit again* as for the pregnancy, I'd remove them from the military entirely.  Discharge them; not remove them from the combat zone.  Pregnancy already puts them in a medically non-deployable status.  I'd discharge them from the military entirely.



*edit* it's not just the men who can't keep their fly zipped.  The women have a fly on their pants now too, and they don't keep theirs zipped either.

That is certainly true; I am thinking about who forcibly rapes whom... not consensual sex or casual relationships.

If I were a US military academy career officer and a pilot, I'll be damned if I would stand for being discharged because of a pregnancy. I would take all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary.

TIGERESS

Edit: Do you think schools should be gender segregated?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 02:17:01 PM by Tigeress »

Offline DREDIOCK

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2007, 02:09:01 PM »
My opinion.
No female soldier should be allowed in a forward combat area.

there are PLENTY of vital support roles that could be filled by women that would better utilise the natural skills of women. And free up the men to do the fighting.
Yes that of caregiver (Doctor/Nurse)
Their natural superiour organizational skills in supply and logistics
(All one has to do is take a good look as just about any mother to see this in action)

Too many things can go wrong for women in an intence and hostile setting.
Sexual assault by make soldiers.
Rape if captured by the enemy.
Not to mention even if the first two do not occur.

Nature tends to take its course between men and women whenever they are lumped together for an extended period of time.
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Offline Coshy

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2007, 02:20:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68Wooley
As Laser said, as long as physical and mental standards aren't being lowered or exceptions being made, what's the problem?

Lord RedHawk makes the statement that womens' physical endurance is a problem. I don't understand that (and I've never military or physical education training so I may be missing something). Surely there is a level of physical endurance required by all reqruits - male and female. If you don't make the grade, you wash out. Where does gender come in to it?

Also, sexual assault as a means of torture when captured may happen, but is that any more or less likely to make your unit lose moral than - say - seeing your captured buddy decapitated on Al Jazeera. I reckon there's a level of barabrism after which the details don't matter.

As I said, I've no relevent experience in this so I may be missing something.


The physical standards are different for men and women. Remembering back 10yrs ago when I was in, a male in my age group had 17 min to finish a 2 mile run, while a female in the same age group had something like 19 min. Males in my age group had to do 48 pushups to pass the PT test, females had to do 28. Males in my age group had to do 42 situps, females in my age group had to do 38.

Those numbers may not be 100% exact, but I do remember in each category the performance standard for females was less than that of males. Now, I dont know if in the last 10 years this has changed, so if it has, please disregard.

To add to redhawks statements ... What happens when a male soldier weighing 180lbs gets wounded and cannot walk and his only means of getting to aid/safety is a female soldier weighing 120? I sincerly wouldnt want to be the wounded soldier in that situation.

For the OP:

In wars past there was a difinitive line, this was a combat zone, this was not. I think it will be a very long time before we see a war like that again.  When a terrorist/enemy combatant/whatever can just as easily attack a barracks as a tank, there are no more "rear areas". I'm all for allowing women in all areas of the military, provided there is one standard for both men and women, those who cannot pass (both men & women) should be discharged.
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Offline texasmom

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2007, 02:21:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Edit: Do you think schools should be gender segregated?

I would be thrilled if schools were gender segregated (for most of the classroom work anyhow)
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Offline Tigeress

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2007, 02:25:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by texasmom
I would be thrilled if schools were gender segregated (for most of the classroom work anyhow)


I recall you telling me you have young sons; do you also have daughters?

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Offline texasmom

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Females in combat zones/jobs. Good Idea? Bad idea?
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2007, 02:27:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
I recall you telling me you have young sons; do you also have daughters?
TIGERESS

Nope, just boys (thank God)
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