190 Series Vs. P38 Series

[Widewing]

Originally posted by stephen
if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.

a little addition for those rope a dope addicts out there, dont get sukkerd:aok

I get a kick out of guys like this...

Define "starts high". 10k, 20k higher? Do both start high, or only the 190? Not that it matters to me, I really don't mind being the low fighter.

Keep in mind that the P-38J is faster over 90% of the altitude range than the Antons, and the difference in acceleration and climb gets increasingly lopsided as you go up. I should remind folks that the last adjustment to the drag model significantly increased the turn radius of all 190s, including the Ta 152.

I fly 190s quite a lot. I'm as capable in them as anyone else. I know where they're weak and strong. I also fly the P-38s a great deal. Air to air, the P-38J/L is superior. When all is said and done, all the 190 can do is split-s and skedaddle.

Among the fighters that perform best in vertical combat, I rate the P-38 as the best of the bunch. Its stability and rudder control is without peer (it's the only fighter than can perform a perfectly controlled hammerhead stall).

Let's add some perspective. The P-51 owns the 190s in a duel. The P-38 owns the P-51 in a duel... Draw the logical conclusion.

My regards,

Widewing

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Widewing
Any of the 190 Antons we have are outclassed by the P-38J or L in the game. Your best bet is the 190A-5, and it's still cannon fodder in an even-up fight. The Dora has enough speed to flee, and it will likely have to because in anything close to a Co-E meeting, it is in deep bandini.

Agreed.  The planes are not even close.

- oldman

[Charge]

"Agreed. The planes are not even close."

I agree with that too. The most numerous Anton variant is a POS in AH. Draw your own conclusions from that...

-C+

[Widewing]

A little comparison data from actual testing:

25% fuel, zero burn. 190A-5 with just two cannon.

Best turn radius, full flaps and WEP.
190A-5: 601.6 feet
P-38J: 598.4 feet

Note that the 190A-5 cannot get flaps out at all without either reducing power or climbing. Meanwhile, the P-38 can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph. The 190 won't survive long enough to get flaps out.

Climb, time from dead stop on runway to 5k and 10k. Yak-9U thrown in for reference.
190A-5: 1:35.79 to 5k / 3:01.44 to 10k
P-38J: 1:29.98 to 5k / 2:51.91 to 10k
Yak-9U: 1:32.16 to 5k / 2:54.56 to 10k

Acceleration, from 150 mph to 300 mph at 100 feet ASL.
190A-5: 49.91 seconds
P-38J: 45.31 seconds
Yak-9U: 44.37 seconds

My regards,

Widewing

[oboe]

Here's the actual data from the last tour, late war MA.    Interesting numbers I think.    I wouldn't draw a strong conclusion from this.  If I saw all the data from all the tours ever, I'd still probably lean towards thinking its pilot over plane.

Fw 190A-5 has 13 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 9 Kills of Fw 190A-5

Fw 190A-5 has 41 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 44 Kills of Fw 190A-5

Fw 190A-5 has 97 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 55 Kills of Fw 190A-5

Fw 190A-8 has 27 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 25 Kills of Fw 190A-8

Fw 190A-8 has 89 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 95 Kills of Fw 190A-8

Fw 190A-8 has 230 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 169 Kills of Fw 190A-8

Fw 190F-8 has 28 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 32 Kills of Fw 190F-8

Fw 190F-8 has 1 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 7 Kills of Fw 190F-8

Fw 190F-8 has 8 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 18 Kills of Fw 190F-8

Fw 190D-9 has 32 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 13 Kills of Fw 190D-9

Fw 190D-9 has 101 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 112 Kills of Fw 190D-9

Fw 190D-9 has 299 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 162 Kills of Fw 190D-9

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by stephen
if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.
 

That can be said for any fighter that starts off with an altitude advantage.   But as Widewing said, the FW190 better have a significant altitude advantage because co-E it is going to die.  Also, the higher the altitude the more the P-38 shines.

If you have any doubts, I'd be more than happy to show you how a P-38 can kill a FW190.


ack-ack

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by oboe
Here's the actual data from the last tour, late war MA.    Interesting numbers I think.    I wouldn't draw a strong conclusion from this.  If I saw all the data from all the tours ever, I'd still probably lean towards thinking its pilot over plane.

 

I'd suggest it is in more how the planes are flown.  I rarely find 190s below me, and usually find them above.  They are BnZ birds for the most part and I know when I've died to a 190 it's usually some guy blowing through a fight I've been having with someone else and getting the cannons to do their thing.

As I said in another post there are a few 190 drivers who can really make it move, but on the whole it's a speed and heavy cannon bird not one that stays in to fight.

That's not a criticism btw, as it makes little sense for them to do so as most can't work magic in them.

[hubsonfire]

I'd suggest that it's a combination of how they are flown, how they are used, and the number of sorties of both planes and their variants. I'd bet a lot of those kills by 190s occured near or on the runway.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'd suggest that it's a combination of how they are flown, how they are used, and the number of sorties of both planes and their variants. I'd bet a lot of those kills by 190s occured near or on the runway.

There ya go making sense again hub.

Stop it

[trigger2]

Originally posted by Bosco123
They are similar in many ways, but the P38 is a better turn fighter and the 190 is an E fighter but the P38 is still not the best turner. So what would realy happen against these two in the air?

This one would go on how much each pilot knows their plane.
If the p38 can get the 190 to tail it in a climb while p38's flying with WEP, the p38 odds are will win that fight, but, if the 190 can get it into a roll/stall fight, odds are, the 190 will win, it all depends on how it goes down, and how much talent is in the other plane.

[Raptor]

Originally posted by trigger2
This one would go on how much each pilot knows their plane.
If the p38 can get the 190 to tail it in a climb while p38's flying with WEP, the p38 odds are will win that fight, but, if the 190 can get it into a roll/stall fight, odds are, the 190 will win, it all depends on how it goes down, and how much talent is in the other plane.

I love it when a  190 thinks he can start rolling and force my P38 to overshoot. I just deploy flaps and cut throttle and fly straight and level while 190 goes back and forth rolling as fast as it can... while I remain behind it.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by trigger2
if the 190 can get it into a roll/stall fight, odds are, the 190 will win, it all depends on how it goes down, and how much talent is in the other plane.

P-38 will beat the crap out of a FW190 in a low/stall speed fight, especially in a rolling scissors.  P-38 handles far better at slow/stall speeds than a FW190 and will be able to use this advantage to stay behind the FW190 as it tries to reverse in a rolling scissor.


ack-ack

[leitwolf]

I'm surprised so many people get the strenghts and weaknesses of these two planes mixed up.

Against someone who knows his stuff, getting slow (unless he's in a dedicated turner) and CoE against a P-38J/L is a death warrant.

CoE the 190A-5/8 are prey.

[yankedudel]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
If you can find an equally horrible 38 pilot, I'll help demonstrate the point.

I am available for horrible 38 pilot demonstrations!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Bosco123
They are similar in many ways, but the P38 is a better turn fighter and the 190 is an E fighter but the P38 is still not the best turner. So what would realy happen against these two in the air?

If the P-38 ain't going down after my first pass, I disengage with my FW.
If the P-38 is behind my FW, I'll disengage.

No point in staying and taking the risk Use your superior plane to survive and wait for next chance or perhaps drag the P-38 for your wingman or other colleague.