Sgt203, thank you for your objective and honest addition to this debate. I have taken excerpts from your eloquently worded post and grouped them together with excerpts that are, in my opinion, of similar concepts and values.
Originally posted by sgt203
However you have to understand that most of these terrorists are religious zealots who are not going to voluntarily give you information out of the goodness of their hearts. They are going to have to be persuaded to give the information you seek.
Originally posted by sgt203
To allow a person who has, in my opinion, removed themselves from the laws of civilized mankind to withhold information that may save the life of someones Mother , father or brother or sister out of political correctness is absurd.
Originally posted by sgt203
However Sleep deprivation, waterboarding,and the use of complete isolation are not in my opinion Torture.
Most criminals will not offer information willingly. Are you of the opinion that the police should be allowed to use water torture (waterboarding for those who condone rationalizing pseudonyms) to obtain information from all criminals? If not, then why? If it’s not torture why not allow all law enforcement to use these effective techniques in their investigations?
Would you consider it acceptable if a foreign power used water torture on US citizens? If not, why?
And just so we’re all agreed on what water torture (waterboarding) really is:
“Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.”
Originally posted by sgt203
There needs to be some control over what can and cannot be used to obtain information and it needs to be kept secret ( not that that is ever possible these days).
To me that seems like an oxymoron. How can secrecy be maintained while still having control? And by control I assume you mean civilian oversight. Government secrecy is in the end an enemy of democracy and freedom.
Originally posted by sgt203
Bin Laden knows what terrorist plans, hiding places, training spots are and should we ever catch him should we not get that information, even if it involves having to use some sort of force to get it.
Originally posted by sgt203
Do we strap electrodes to their testicles, cut and mutlilate them with knives, break bones etc etc etc... NO even in my opinion that goes far beyond the realm of acceptable.
Why? If you are willing to use force against Bin Laden why not go all the way? While breaking bones and mutilations are less effective forms of torture I do not get this hesitation to use all effective methods … if you already have decided to use some of them. The rest of the civilized world are already considering you as torturers. In a perhaps strange way if your government had come out and said “**** yeah we are torturing these people” I would have respected them more (not much, but more nonetheless). At least then they would have been honest about it … instead of trying to re-label and justify a technique of torture that has been a favourite of bad-guys since the Spanish inquisition invented it half a millennia ago. The Spaniards called it toca, or tortura del agua. They were honest about it.
Originally posted by sgt203
His last big attack caused the deaths of over 3000 American Civilians, men, women and children. His networks world wide body count is much much higher than that. He and his followers have long ago removed themselves from the laws and acceptance of the civilized world. Yet we should provide them the protections of the civilized world once they are drawn back into it against their will???
Less than 3000 Americans were killed by the 9/11 terrorist attacks. It should hardly be necessary to exaggerate that event.
A wise man once said “the fire you kindle for your enemy often burns you more than it burns him”. And it is very true. Being civilized is not measured by how you treat your friends, but how you treat your enemies. By not affording these people the protections of the civilized world, as you quite eloquently put it, you have made yourselves less civilized. If you do that then the terrorists have won … and they have, big time.
Originally posted by sgt203
These government agents job is to protect you, your family, our soldiers home and abroad, and every civilian of every country all over the world who may for whatever reason may be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Originally posted by sgt203
It is a personal matter to some mother, father, brother or sister out there who may be the next target.To say that is beside the point because it does not personally involve you, but then to say should it you would do whatever it takes to protect your family is slightly hypocritical. That is exactly what is being done here. They do not have to specifically protect your family but every family all over the world.
While protecting life is important there are far more important issues at stake here. Some things are worth dying for; two of them are freedom and justice. Despite a most impressive propaganda campaign by (among others) your government to make me believe otherwise, terrorism is a minute threat to me, my family, and everyone else in the western world. Compared to other hazards like traffic accidents and illnesses, terrorism is a
negligible threat. I am far more likely to be killed by what I’m eating than by some religious zealot with a purpose. So please believe me when I say that
I don’t want protection from terrorism. I’d rather live with the added risk of being blown up in a coffee shop than have the “protection” of a secret police and the knowledge that atrocious things are being done to people … in MY name.
So please for the sake of [insert favourite deity] … lose the Gestapo and their torture chambers … “simulated” or otherwise.
