Author Topic: Spitfires (Read 3285 times)

SgtPappy · « **Reply #45 on:** January 06, 2008, 08:28:11 PM »

True, the game was based so that pilots could get more familiar with the game and have fun instead of give up... its all in HTC's business plan.

We're also having too many things... Spitfires never flew in WWII combat with aileron trim but we've got it on all planes! More accurate prop pitch modeling would affect planes as well... some more than others. The 109's prop pitch adjustment system, as I've heard, is quirky and isn't as simple as a Hamilton Standard or Rotol on the Allied planes. Also, hydrodynamic propellors should run away on the pilot once the oil system is hit since the prop relies on the oil pressure. But, we don't have that either. A good amount of Allied planes would suffer from that... F4U, Tempest, P-51, Spitfire to name a few. The P-38, though wouldn't .. all the more reason to add a P-38H!

Mixture is something that a pilot could really help pilots especially pilots lifting heavy ord off of CV's. The extra power could also be very useful when running. P-51's and Spitfires wouldn't really have that extra advantage but then again, I don't think Spitfires run and P-51's are fast enough.

Widewing · « **Reply #46 on:** January 06, 2008, 11:41:17 PM »

Ok guys, a couple of points..

1. You don't have to worry much about a runaway prop due to loss of oil pressure. Pitch CHANGE is dependent on oil pressure. Loss of pressure means the prop will stay where it was set, or creep up to the high rpm stops under dynamic load. Normally, the prop will be at high RPM/Low pitch for combat.

2. The P-38 was far more prone to runaway props with the Curtiss Electric propellers than any fighter with an Hamilton Standard prop installed. This problem plagued the B-26 as well.

3. There are three mixture settings in a US fighter type. Idle Cutoff, Auto-Lean and Auto-Rich. There are no cockpit adjustments. Takeoffs, landings and combat require Auto-Rich. A pilot would shove the mixture lever to Auto-Rich, the prop lever up to max rpm, then push up power and he is ready for combat (in the order I present them). Typically, this condition was set long before actual combat occurred. Pushing the throttle up before the prop(s) is at max RPM can easily lead to an overboost condition, which can cause detonation and engine damage, especially if allowed to persist.

4. Once the mixture and prop is set, there is no need to touch them again, except to cruise home later if fuel is an issue.

My regards,

Widewing

Krusty · « **Reply #47 on:** January 07, 2008, 12:29:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Spitfires never flew in WWII combat with aileron trim but we've got it on all planes!

This has been brought up many times. Spitfires didn't have spring-centered plastic USB joysticks for their inputs. You wanted it to roll a little you moved the stick and it *stayed there* -- that was your trim. This, much like the icon system, is to make up for the lack of technology to allow us to mimick the real deal.

No spring-centered control for any computer out there will approximate what a spitfire flew like, with or WITHOUT aileron trim capability.

The trim is NOT on the plane, but rather on the stick force itself (also why the trim moves the entire surface, not just the trim tabs).

The "trim" from the ailerons isn't modeled, it's the pilot's ability to fine-tune his stick that is modeled.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 07, 2008, 03:40:29 AM »

It's all about playability in the end.

All the realisim junkies have to keep it in mind. No sim is going to get it exactly right.

Take any squadron of fighters from any air force during WW2 and you'll have ones that run better then others, some taken care of better then others, some with more dings and dents, some with polished finishes, some with an engine just changed while others are pushing it towards 200 hours and an engine change, etc etc.

As far as I can tell AH meets it about in the middle and for this pretend pilot it allows for my imagination to run wild, without having to worry too much about whether my crew chief tuned my bird right and that I've done a good pre-flight. I really don't want to worry about icing, throwing a rod, fouled plugs, the amount of oxygen in my bottle, or anything else outside of getting into the fight and mixing it up

scottydawg · « **Reply #49 on:** January 07, 2008, 07:50:40 AM »

I love the "Spits are easy mode" whines. Spits are second only to Zekes as far as inability to handle damage and wing loading.

Anaxogoras · « **Reply #50 on:** January 07, 2008, 10:42:03 AM »

Quote

Spits are second only to Zekes as far as inability to handle damage and wing loading.

Inability to handle wing loading? Normally, wing-loading refers to the proportion of lifting area versus weight. Aircraft with high wing-loading turn poorly, and aircraft with low wing-loading turn well.

Krusty · « **Reply #51 on:** January 07, 2008, 10:47:13 AM »

FYI spits are about as easy as they come for being able to out-turn 90% of the planeset, and out-run 80% of it, outclimb 98% of the planeset, out shoot everything (hispano trumps all), and they're pretty decent on acceleration too.

You learn in a spit you can't move to any other plane without re-learning everything. On the other hand, you learn in ANOTHER plane, and it applies naturally to the spit. See what I'm saying? Spit's an easy mode plane, anybody that denies this only flies the spit.

Even a BOB spitfire pilot said the Me109 was a lovely plane, but it took skill to fly. Any old moron could fly a spitfire. And that's how they kept their numbers up, they didn't need to train them as much. The LW had to train their pilots more to do the same thing, so they were behind the numbers curve.

scottydawg · « **Reply #52 on:** January 07, 2008, 11:04:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Inability to handle wing loading? Normally, wing-loading refers to the proportion of lifting area versus weight. Aircraft with high wing-loading turn poorly, and aircraft with low wing-loading turn well.

Misspoke. What I meant was the wings are weak and particularly vulnerable to snapping at high speed and from bullet damage.

Angus · « **Reply #53 on:** January 07, 2008, 11:34:50 AM »

....which was not the fact in real life.....

scottydawg · « **Reply #54 on:** January 07, 2008, 11:49:35 AM »

I was just speaking of in-game experience.

Yarbles · « **Reply #55 on:** January 07, 2008, 12:53:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
FYI spits are about as easy as they come for being able to out-run 80% (Sorry dont agree with this even if you include the bombers but I do agree they out accelerate anything which is the real point. Once your closely engaged you cant run)

out shoot everything (hispano trumps all), (Typhoon, Tempest, 262, 110 and Nikki plus the big gun 109 190 late war stuff. Also spit very vulnerable to damage in a shoot out)

Even a BOB spitfire pilot said the Me109 was a lovely plane, but it took skill to fly. Any old moron could fly a spitfire. And that's how they kept their numbers up, they didn't need to train them as much. The LW had to train their pilots more to do the same thing, so they were behind the numbers curve.

Most german fighters were shot down by Hurricanes. Numbers reflected the proximity of bases and shorter distances plus Radar multiplying the effectiveness of Uk fighters and they shot lots of 109's in the back as they ran out of fuel and limped back home.

Ever noticed how the numbers work so well in defence in the game. Huge Dar Bar round the base yet cant be taken because so many planes are always in transit.

Anyway you make lots of good points Krusty but you do oversimplify. Any plane which is a good turner is easy to master initially as the furball style is intuitively the more obvious fighting technique and the first people adopt.

SlapShot · « **Reply #56 on:** January 07, 2008, 01:13:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
You learn in a spit you can't move to any other plane without re-learning everything. On the other hand, you learn in ANOTHER plane, and it applies naturally to the spit.

In premise you are correct, but the brush is a little to broad.

BaldEagl · « **Reply #57 on:** January 07, 2008, 02:15:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Spit's an easy mode plane, anybody that denies this only flies the spit.

True enough except for the fact that you're often one of the bigger threats, and therefore one of the first targets.

Also, at least for me, it's such a good plane I too often get into situations I would avidly avoid in anything else.

Lusche · « **Reply #58 on:** January 07, 2008, 02:22:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BaldEagl

Also, at least for me, it's such a good plane I too often get into situations I would avidly avoid in anything else.

Same here with the LA-7. One of the best & most dangerous planes in AH2. Yet my K/D ratio in it is far worse than in every other plane I fly - because I usually up it when things really get desperate.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #59 on:** January 07, 2008, 02:27:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
FYI spits are about as easy as they come for being able to out-turn 90% of the planeset, and out-run 80% of it, outclimb 98% of the planeset, out shoot everything (hispano trumps all), and they're pretty decent on acceleration too.

You learn in a spit you can't move to any other plane without re-learning everything. On the other hand, you learn in ANOTHER plane, and it applies naturally to the spit. See what I'm saying? Spit's an easy mode plane, anybody that denies this only flies the spit.

Even a BOB spitfire pilot said the Me109 was a lovely plane, but it took skill to fly. Any old moron could fly a spitfire. And that's how they kept their numbers up, they didn't need to train them as much. The LW had to train their pilots more to do the same thing, so they were behind the numbers curve.

You really didn't just call WW2 Spitfire pilots "morons" did ya Krusty?

Seperate the game from the real thing please and loosen your leather Lederhosen, they're putting too much pressure on your brain

How many hours at an OTU did the average wartime 109 pilot have before he went to a combat unit Krusty? Do you know? I'd be curious as to a 1941 timeframe 109 driver.

I have that logbook of a Spit pilot and he got to his first operational squadron in December 41. When he left 53 OTU to go to 416 squadron he had 208.25 flight hours, of which 42.35 were Spits.

He flew another 56.55 hours on Spits while on the squadron before he flew an operational mission. So roughly 100 hours of flight time on Spits before he saw a combat sortie. I'd suggest this was probably average for a wartime Spit driver.

Too much is made of the rushed to combat bunch in the B of B where guys had 20 hours etc.

I'm sure you will see the same thing with 109 pilots in late 44-45 when they were losing pilots faster then they could train them.

But I'd love to know what a 1941 Me109 pilot had for hours when he saw his first combat sortie.

Not questioning that the 109 was a more difficult bird to fly, but I don't know that for a wartime bird that's a good thing. Seems to me RJ Mitchell deserves a lot of credit for creating a fighter in the mid thirties that was able to stay on the leading edge of fighter development during the war and was also designed to be a pilot's airplane that was easier for a novice to handle.