Author Topic: F6f-5p? (Read 3973 times)

humble · « **on:** January 03, 2008, 10:27:50 AM »

I knew that the F6F-5P was operational in the ETO during the invasion of southern France (VOF-1) and that is was deployed thruout the pacific integrated into most F6F equipped squads (along with the F6F-5N). I didnt know that it actually served at squadron strength in the PAC. VF-84 apparently flew a mix of F6F-5P's and N's in Feb/May 1945 prior to the Bunker Hill being kamikazed on May 11, 1945. I always thought only the VOF squads flew the F6FP (or FM-2) at squadron strength. This came from a piece of artwork I stumbled across that had a VF-84 F6F-5P along with some historical blurb.

Anyway I certainly hope that when the F6F's get redone that the 5P loadout is added as an option (should be either an ENY 5 bird or light perk IMO)....

Krusty · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2008, 10:31:31 AM »

You will find that almost ALL -Ps were armed with .50cals only.

The majority of all photographs show this. I've only seen a few test planes with the cannons.

IMO the F6F should NEVER get cannons. Ever. It would be like adding cannons to the P-51. It just didn't have 'em (not counting the Allison-engined early model)

Saxman · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2008, 11:30:17 AM »

Well, the -5N replaced the inboard .50s with 20mm. But we're not likely to get ANY nightfighters, so that's beside the point

humble · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2008, 11:48:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
You will find that almost ALL -Ps were armed with .50cals only.

The majority of all photographs show this. I've only seen a few test planes with the cannons.

IMO the F6F should NEVER get cannons. Ever. It would be like adding cannons to the P-51. It just didn't have 'em (not counting the Allison-engined early model)

VOF-1 flew the F6F5-P complete with cannon in support of the invasion of southern France. All 942 british F6F-5's (gannett?) were equipped with the 20mm package...which was designed from the start (all F6F-5's could accept the 20mm option with required field mods). Most of the P's & N's flew with the 20mm option if the belt links for the 20mm were available (which was the biggest problem). Significantly more 20mm armed F6F's saw combat then the Ta-152's or Nikki's we have here...as well as the -C hog. The F6F-5N's & P's were utilized for standard duties more often then not. Each squad had a few P's and N's...and they were cannon armed when logistics supported it (if they had 20mm links available).

splitatom · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2008, 12:25:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
VOF-1 flew the F6F5-P complete with cannon in support of the invasion of southern France. All 942 british F6F-5's (gannett?) were equipped with the 20mm package...which was designed from the start (all F6F-5's could accept the 20mm option with required field mods). Most of the P's & N's flew with the 20mm option if the belt links for the 20mm were available (which was the biggest problem). Significantly more 20mm armed F6F's saw combat then the Ta-152's or Nikki's we have here...as well as the -C hog. The F6F-5N's & P's were utilized for standard duties more often then not. Each squad had a few P's and N's...and they were cannon armed when logistics supported it (if they had 20mm links available).

the f6 with the 20 only had 2 and 4 50 cals

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2008, 01:07:05 PM »

Show me some pictures. If nearly a thousand of these planes served, there would be at least a few dozen photos of SOME of them.

Show me some pictures of these 20mm armed planes in service.

Then I might agree with you.

So far, there are NO photos that I've seen that show a 20mm armed Hellcat in service. [EDIT: Not counting radome-wielding night fighters] There's one really low res photo that's blurry of 2 planes in formation, but no notes, no location (could be stateside testing). The only other photos are on the production line or in test plane colors.

Let's put it this way.... Over 200 n1k2s served. About 12-24 Ta-152s served (12 for sure, 12 more were supposed to be sent). We have MANY photos of these planes, in many situations, in many states of repair/disrepair. They are easily proven to have existed just by looking at them and saying "Oh, there you are!"

We can't even do that for the F6F with 20mms.

humble · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2008, 01:30:38 PM »

Pics have already been posted of VOF-1 planes in action that show the 20mm. It's also readily avialable in the unit histories. The configuration of the Gannetts is also readily available as well as documentation regarding the often fruitless search for appropriate gun belt links for the 20mm in the PAC.

The 20mm was not widely used in the F6F in US service, however it was designed to carry the 20mm from the beginning. VOF-1 did use the 20mm loadout and it was used on both the P and N in the PAC (however no question the 6 x .50 was in wider use on the P){I believe the N's almost always had the 20mm loadout.}

This isnt about "proving" anything, over 1400 P's were delivered with 20mm installed. They were removed in the field if so desired....but they came from the factory with the 20mm option.

SlapShot · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2008, 02:16:36 PM »

Well ... talk to Maj. R. Bruce Porter.

He flew a cannon equipped Grumman F6F-5N Hellcat night fighter with the VMF-542N during the Battle of Okinawa.

He assumed command of VMF-542 from Maj. W C Kellum and also took command of his F6F-5N ... F(N)76 BuNo 78669 ... it was the only cannon armed F6F in the squadron.

Kellum named the plane ... Millie Lou ... but Porter renamed it to ... Black Death.

He scored a very rare 2 kills in 1 night sortie, which combined with his other Corsair kills, made him an ace.

The 20mm option, as snapshook pointed out, was available for all F6F-5 models. It was typically the N and P variants that used the 20mm option. The 20mm were preferred for the night fighters due to the fact that they had to get real close and wanted to dispatch their prey quickly and get out of harm's way.

I think the number (if one could find such numbers) of F6Fs that flew with the 20mm option, it would far outnumber the amount of 3 cannon La-7s that flew during the war.

I personally don't think that the F6F needs the cannon option, but if and when HTC gets around to "perking" gun packages, it would be a cool addition to add the 20mm option to the F6F ... same as the 20mm "perk" package F4U and the 3 cannon "perk" package for the La-7.

Krusty · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2008, 02:20:02 PM »

A LOT of things came from the factories sometimes, and sometimes they never saw any action period. Just saying "they came from the factory" means nothing. Look at the USN example of -Ps, they came from the factory with 20mms installed but there's next to no visual proof that they ever used them. In fact there's an abundance of proof to the contrary. A lot of -Ns also switched to all 50cals, also.

Simply saying "It came from the factory" is wishful thinking in this case. We can go back to the Spit Vc with 4x20mm example again, too. It's been rehashed many a time.

What does the Fairey Gannet (ugliest plane ever designed in WW2) have to do with F6Fs' armament?

Oh, and just saying that the brits had the belt links means they used the ammo is a spurious claim. You need to go one step further.

Like I said, if there's supposedly almost a thousand of these planes in service there would be photographic proof.

As noted in one of the longer previous 20mm-on-hellcat-posts, I noted that about half of the -Ps were supposed to go to the Brits, but were diverted to the pacific. They never got there in time, and at war's end were shoved overboard into the sea. That alone would account for a large number of them. Still, with about 400+ of these around, there should be SOME photos, right? I haven't seen any. If you've got some post them.

Krusty · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2008, 02:23:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
The 20mm option, as snapshook pointed out, was available for all F6F-5 models.

That's one of the most misleading quotes from all the threads on this matter.

The mere fact that the wing could physically HOLD the gun does not mean it was an available option for the plane. Look at spitfires. They COULD mount a hispano inboard and outboard but they never did. It was physically possible, but NOT an option. Nobody did it. It's also physically possible to fill all the inner spaces of the wings and fuselage on a plane with a pilot's clothes and personal affects on ferry trips. It was NOT an option during combat sorties.

Spurious arguments, and highly misleading to say "they could all have it as an option" -- none but the night fighters did, and even those often had 50cals instead.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2008, 02:29:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
A LOT of things came from the factories sometimes, and sometimes they never saw any action period. Just saying "they came from the factory" means nothing. Look at the USN example of -Ps, they came from the factory with 20mms installed but there's next to no visual proof that they ever used them. In fact there's an abundance of proof to the contrary. A lot of -Ns also switched to all 50cals, also.

Quote

Following three weeks of uneventful missions, Porter flew night CAP on June 15, 1945. Having just received a letter from his fiancee, he was in a positive mood. He took off into a completely black night, with thick cloud cover and no moonlight. He evaded gunfire from some jumpy naval AA crews, and checked out his radar, machine guns, and fuel. He reported in to his ground control office (GCI) on Ie Shima, whose ground-based radar had the range to pick up distant bogeys. He ("Topaz One") and the GCI ("Handyman") stayed in contact as he circled lazily for almost an hour. Then "Topaz from Handyman, I have a bogey for you. Range 30 miles at 10 o'clock. Angel 13." The bogey had 3,000 feet of altitude on Porter, so he dropped tanks, firewalled the throttle, and armed his guns. The GCI kept reporting the closing distance, "Fifteen miles ... Ten miles ... Six miles"

At range three miles, Porter turned onto the course that "Handyman" indicated would bring him up behind the bogey. When he flipped on his Hellcat's radar, the bogey was still out of its range. Trusting in the GCI's guidance, Porter flew on; in a few minutes a tiny orange blip appeared at the top of his radar screen. He was right on target. "Contact" he reported to "Handyman." He looked to see if he could spot his target; in a few seconds he saw the bogey's exhaust flames and he satisfied himself that he was looking at a Ki-45 Nick twin-engine fighter, about 350 feet ahead. He opened up with all .50 caliber machine guns and the slower-firing 20mm cannon. As his machine guns used up ammo quickly, he let up on them, but continued with the 20mm, wanting to flame the Nick for a sure kill. Soon enough flames swept over the fuselage and the Nick lurched heavily to the right. Porter's tracer fire swept through the canopy. It was all over in about 2 seconds; he doubted that the pilot ever knew what hit him. "Handyman" radioed that the bogey had disappeared from his radar screen. Porter had scored his fourth confirmed kill.

That same night, an hour later: "Hello Topaz One from Handyman. I've got another bogey for you. Boegey at Angels 14. Indicated 180 knots. Vector 145 at Angels 13." Porter started the stern chase and altitude climb needed to close on the bogey, hoping that he could get in range before the bogey reached the fleet and its indiscriminate AA fire. The stern chase seemed to take forever, as "Handyman" radioed the closing range and altitude. Convinced that he was behind a Betty bomber, with its tail machine gunner, Porter had to be careful. He approached the Betty from just underneath and repeated his deadly gunfire. Once again the combined .50 caliber and 20mm rounds found their target; this time the Betty exploded in an expanding ball of exploding fuel. "Handyman" confirmed this kill as well. Porter was an ace!

Porter walking down flight line (though you can't see them, the plane behind him is his personal plane "Black Death" armed with 4x .50 cals and 2x 20mm cannons.

Though you can't see it very well, restored F6F-5N with 20mm cannons.

As you can see in the above photos, these F6F-5N were equipped with 20mm cannons.

ack-ack

Krusty · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2008, 02:35:34 PM »

Ack-Ack, that's the radome-wielding version (note it says "flipped on his radar"

The request everybody has been asking for (and will til perdition) is for a normal hellcat with 20mms (no radar radome or any other equipment).

Like I said, some of the night fighters had 'em. I've seen photos of many with wing radomes but all 50cals (no 20mms), so there were a lot of those too.

But show me a NON-NIGHT-FIGHTER that had the 20mms, in service. It's a mythical beast up to this point.

SlapShot · « **Reply #12 on:** January 03, 2008, 03:33:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
That's one of the most misleading quotes from all the threads on this matter.

The mere fact that the wing could physically HOLD the gun does not mean it was an available option for the plane. Look at spitfires. They COULD mount a hispano inboard and outboard but they never did. It was physically possible, but NOT an option. Nobody did it. It's also physically possible to fill all the inner spaces of the wings and fuselage on a plane with a pilot's clothes and personal affects on ferry trips. It was NOT an option during combat sorties.

Spurious arguments, and highly misleading to say "they could all have it as an option" -- none but the night fighters did, and even those often had 50cals instead.

Listen ... don't go getting testy, snotty, and/or condecending here.

I was simply re-enforcing the fact that the wing design could accommodate the option. I never inferred that because of that, 1000s were in action with the 20mm package.

Regardless of what you say or you needing "picture" proof ... there were cannon equipped F6F-5 in service. Just cause you can't find a picture doesn't mean they weren't used.

It is a known and documented fact that Maj. Porter flew a cannon armed F6F-5N and scored 2 confirmed kills with that plane. I can't imagine that he was the ONLY pilot in all of the Pacific that flew a cannon armed F6F-5N of the 1,400+ F6F-5Ns that were delivered.

Here is 4 of them ...

Krusty · « **Reply #13 on:** January 03, 2008, 03:47:13 PM »

Sorry for my tone, but this has been rehashed over and over.

FYI: those are -Ns. Yes, some -Ns had 20mms (not too many, though).

The ever-ongoing-never-ending request for -5Ps (without radar equipment reducing the performance) is the issue at hand. These are just like the F6F we have in-game, only with 20mm.

Ack-ack:

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack

Porter walking down flight line (though you can't see them, the plane behind him is his personal plane "Black Death" armed with 4x .50 cals and 2x 20mm cannons.

Though you can't see it very well, restored F6F-5N with 20mm cannons.

Those are ALL 50call planes. No 20mms. The 20mms stick out about a foot and a half and have a huge round fairing at the base.

Quote

As you can see in the above photos, these F6F-5N were equipped with 20mm cannons.

ack-ack

THAT one has a 20mm. You can see the difference between it and the previous pictures.

Only, it's a -N night fighter. The -P didn't have the radome and that's why this is requested over and over. No real chance this game will ever get dedicated night fighters, and nobody would want the drop in performance from the equipment. The issue regarding the -P is that just about none had 20mms.

Krusty · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2008, 03:53:17 PM »

Okay, just to clarify the issue, as it's getting muddled:

F6F-5N:

Night fighter. Some (not many) had 20mms. Not going to be in the game ever IMO.

F6F-5P:

Photo recon. Used as day fighter. None have been shown to have used 20mm thus far. This has been heavily requested as an excuse to tack on 2 hispanos to the currently-modeled F6F-5 in-game. Frivilous request, as it seems almost NONE had 20mms, let alone the claims of 900+.

Now, if you have photos of a -5P.... that's another matter.

It's all old hat. My tone was quite rude earlier because it's repetitive that this keeps popping up. Sorry for being rude (honestly).