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Author Topic: who made the best cc weapons in WW2?  (Read 6592 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #165 on: January 08, 2008, 10:49:57 AM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
If you have ever shot with no ear protection ( Dont do it ), you would know that the ping story is a bunch of bull****. You would have to be withen 20 feet to hear that ping with your ears ringing from lots of gunfire.

Granted 20 feet inst all that far in a jungle or forest.


You need to look up "auditory exclusion". Because under stressful situations you'd be amazed at how good your hearing is and how often your ears DON'T ring despite either firing a very loud weapon or being close to one being fired. That DOES NOT mean you won't suffer damage to your hearing if it happens continually. It DOES mean your ears will not necessarily ring, nor will you suffer hearing loss at the time. When it becomes a matter of life and death things are a lot different.
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Offline GtoRA2

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #166 on: January 08, 2008, 11:01:06 AM »
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You need to look up "auditory exclusion". Because under stressful situations you'd be amazed at how good your hearing is and how often your ears DON'T ring despite either firing a very loud weapon or being close to one being fired. That DOES NOT mean you won't suffer damage to your hearing if it happens continually. It DOES mean your ears will not necessarily ring, nor will you suffer hearing loss at the time. When it becomes a matter of life and death things are a lot different.



I can see that being the case.

I still don't think the tell tale ping is a big deal, you can barely hear it standing behind the firing line if the guy on the Garand is 20 or 30 feet away, and thats without hearing prortection.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #167 on: January 08, 2008, 11:12:11 AM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I can see that being the case.

I still don't think the tell tale ping is a big deal, you can barely hear it standing behind the firing line if the guy on the Garand is 20 or 30 feet away, and thats without hearing prortection.


I agree. The ping is NOT a big deal. And yes, it is true that soldiers tossed empties they kept in their pocket to make the enemy think they were out of ammo and reloading.
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Offline Viking

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #168 on: January 08, 2008, 11:17:48 AM »
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Originally posted by Rino
Golly, Gscholtz doesn't like US weapons..well now, THAT'S a shocker! :D


What makes you say that?
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Offline Viking

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #169 on: January 08, 2008, 11:21:13 AM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Viking
 There is alot of info out there on why the 9MM sucks. Facts and figures on energy and time to stop a person after they are shot.

9MM ball sucks.  


It does not suck for military purposes. The 5.56mm round is not known for its stopping power, but then again stopping power is not very important for military application compared to self defense and law enforcement where the enemy usually are much closer.

If I shoot you centre mass with a 9 mm ... you WILL go down.
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Offline Viking

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #170 on: January 08, 2008, 11:29:38 AM »
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You talk about penetration. The only thing the 9MM penetrates better than 45ACP is helmets. Blah blah blah...


And doors, walls, brush, snow, sand etc. etc. etc. You know ... the usual stuff an enemy soldier takes cover behind.


The 9 mm vs. .45 ACP debate has been going on since the two cartridges were introduced and certainly won't end with this thread. However it seems your military and those of just about every army in the world agrees with me that the 9 mm is the best round for military application.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 11:39:11 AM by Viking »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #171 on: January 08, 2008, 11:51:50 AM »
The truth is, 9MM has been adopted for much the same reason as 5.56MM. It's light, has a little less recoil, and you can carry a whole lot of it. Effectiveness is not really why it was adopted.

NOTHING penetrates brush, that's an old myth. The 230 grain 45ACP ball ammo penetrates farther through most doors, walls, clothes, and flesh, than 115 grain 9MM.

Stopping power is not as important in military weapons? I can assure you most soldiers will strongly disagree with that statement. Like any combat, you want the guy to go down quickly, with as few shots as possible. The NUMBER ONE COMPLAINT with 5.56 NATO is FAILURE TO STOP. The same applies to 9MM. You know why U.S. soldiers like to pick up AK's? Because 7.62 stops better and faster than 5.56 NATO. When your opponent is shooting at you the first thing you want to do is STOP him from shooting at you. And you sure as Hell don't want to have to shoot him several times to make him stop, either.


By the way, "blah, blah, blah" is just a chump's way of saying he can't refute the text he replaces with "blah, blah, blah." If that crap is all you've got, I've got no more time for you.
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Offline Viking

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #172 on: January 08, 2008, 12:05:02 PM »
Temper, temper ... Why can't you just accept that my opinion differs from yours? It is clear we won't agree on this issue. Accept it.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #173 on: January 08, 2008, 12:15:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Viking
Temper, temper ... Why can't you just accept that my opinion differs from yours? It is clear we won't agree on this issue. Accept it.


You assume I've lost my temper. False assumption. I've lost neither my temper, nor even my patience. I have lost more respect for you, since you attempt to cheapen the discussion with "blah, blah, blah" and ill founded assumptions.

I can accept that your poorly based opinion differs from mine.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 12:19:49 PM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
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Offline Viking

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #174 on: January 08, 2008, 12:38:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I can accept that your poorly based opinion differs from mine.


Lol, yeah. Why do I find that hard to believe. (Don't answer that; it was a rhetorical question.)

If you get offended by "blah, blah" then please ... have no more time for me.
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Offline Charge

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #175 on: January 08, 2008, 12:43:03 PM »
"There is alot of info out there on why the 9MM sucks. Facts and figures on energy and time to stop a person after they are shot. 9MM ball sucks."

And then there was half a company of Russian soldiers who might not agree with you.. if they were still alive after meeting Mr Viljam Pylkäs and his M31 "Suomi" submachinegun. 1 man with 1 gun in a single incident.

Oh, but maybe you could -nearly twenty presumably survived the incident. 80 remained on the field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_M-31_SMG

That would be my choice.

-C+
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Offline Yeager

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #176 on: January 08, 2008, 12:47:55 PM »
Lets suppose you are very soon going to get shot.  The shooter asks you to choose 9mm or .45 to get shot with........

Is there really a difference?

I understand why some people are down on the 9mm......those that prefer the .50 are down on the .45

I sometimes choose to carry a .380 Auto with me depending........

In a pinch I will use .22 rimfire, a pellet gun or even a garden variety rock.
Whatever.......

All this blathering about best weapons is really so much nonsense.  I dont want to get shot by anything, and if I need to do any shooting I will use whatever is available to me.......typically .308, 5.56, 9mm, .380 and if Im really hurting .490 cal lead musket ball.......
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Offline Viking

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #177 on: January 08, 2008, 12:49:41 PM »
Really Charge? Are you sure those 9 mm rounds didn't just tickle the Russians so they fell down laughing? Hard to believe the 9 mm ever killed anyone if you listen to some people in this thread.
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Offline GtoRA2

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #178 on: January 08, 2008, 12:54:18 PM »
Well, I decided to look up stopping power data, and was surprised.

I found a link to the Strasbourg goat tests Link to the test site
The tests used large French goats that come close to humans in weight. Read the test controls, they are pretty interesting. They are Peta’s worst nightmare lol.


The results show, basically ball ammo in both the .45 ACP and 9MM suck pretty bad.

Load                                           FPS                  AIT(average incapacitation time)     FT/LBS    LB.Sec
.45 ACP Fed 230-Gr. FMJ             839                    13.84                                          359.59     .8572
.45 ACP Fed 230-gr Hydrashock    847                    8.40                                            366.48     .8654


9MM W-W 115-gr. FMJ                 1163                 14.40                                           345.47     .5941
9MM ECC 115-gr. Starfire              1181                 9.02                                            356.25      .6033


I am surprised the results were not further apart. All in all I would say Ball ammo sucks pretty bad, byt the dif between .45ACP and 9MM Nato are really not all that great. BUT the .45ACP is marginally better in stopping power in all loads.
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Offline BlauK

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #179 on: January 08, 2008, 01:02:06 PM »
Suomi KP in my choice as well... naturally :cool:
It is legendary, it is cool... and because I own one of them :D
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