who made the best cc weapons in WW2?

[Angus]

Close quarters....hmm....Tommygun is cool. But the PPs has a bigger load.
Still, Tompson has up to 40 rounds, and sounds good too

[BlackJack]

^^^weapon of choice in close quarters fight.

[Fishu]

I wouldn't recommend using such big mags in Thompson. The big mags/drums getting in the way was one of major complaints with SMG's in general, besides the rattling.

[BlackJack]

I put 2 models, i'd rather have both with me =D I love fire power, and the move I got the happier I am.

[Angus]

Oddly enough I marched around with a Thompson in my hands for some 3 weeks. (That also included a lot of jumping, running and crawling).
I found it extremely comfortable to carry, and NP with the 40 round mag nor the 32 round one.
It was somewhat heavier than a Garand, but the Garand was more cumbersome on your back.
Tommy was also very quick in pointing. Very very nice.
Aghhh, and the sound

[Viking]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
PPSh-41 Rate of fire 900 rounds/min  

Thompson submachine gun  Rate of fire 600-1200 rpm, depending upon
model

The Tommy gun was originally made in 9mm.  Super high rate of fire, low recoil in this caliber.  It only began having teething problems in .45 caliber.

Well ... it was the .45 ACP M1(A1) model that was used in WWII, 700 rpm with a 20 or 30 round box magazine. And the action of the M1 was a simple blowback action, quite different from the earlier Thompson guns.

[lazs2]

The thompson is very well made and accurate.   both the thompson and the m3 grease gun are very easy to control unless you are a very small, weak man who is very sensitive to noise and recoil.

For subguns..  for what they are for..  All the majors made some good ones... if you had a handgun that was the same caliber you were set and there..  the tommy gun and grease gun get the nod since no other sub gun had a handgun match that was as good as the 1911 browning or the colt or smith revolvers chambered for 45 acp.

When you got down to a revolver or pistol... the 45 was the king in ball ammo military form.

That is the deal breaker for sub guns

lazs

[MiloMorai]

I see no mention of the Ozzie Owen smg, the British Lanchester smg and the American UD M42 smg.

Any comments on these three?

[Viking]

Originally posted by lazs2
When you got down to a revolver or pistol... the 45 was the king in ball ammo military form.

Then why is the .45 not the preferred ammo of military submachineguns and pistols today? Why hasn't other nation tried to copy the .45 ACP cartridge for their own post-WWII weapons?

The reason is the .45 is not the ideal pistol cartridge for military use. It has virtually no penetrating power compared to 9 mm Parabellum and other military pistol cartridges. The .45 ACP's only redeeming feature is that is is somewhat better in suppressed weapons since the bullet is already almost sub-sonic and thus keeps more of its energy compared to higher velocity rounds like the 9mm P. The 9 mm Parabellum has a very good balance of stopping power, penetration and low recoil. Perfect for military application the 9mm is almost in universal use throughout the world ... including America.

As for handgun match the Germans had their P38 pistol, widely regarded as the finest pistol of WWII, and it fired the same 9 mm round as their MP38 and MP40 submachineguns. The Russians matched their Tokarev pistols (Browning clone) with their submachineguns.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Viking
Then why is the .45 not the preferred ammo of military submachineguns and pistols today? Why hasn't other nation tried to copy the .45 ACP cartridge for their own post-WWII weapons?

The reason is the .45 is not the ideal pistol cartridge for military use. It has virtually no penetrating power compared to 9 mm Parabellum and other military pistol cartridges. The .45 ACP's only redeeming feature is that is is somewhat better in suppressed weapons since the bullet is already almost sub-sonic and thus keeps more of its energy compared to higher velocity rounds like the 9mm P. The 9 mm Parabellum has a very good balance of stopping power, penetration and low recoil. Perfect for military application the 9mm is almost in universal use throughout the world ... including America.

As for handgun match the Germans had their P38 pistol, widely regarded as the finest pistol of WWII, and it fired the same 9 mm round as their MP38 and MP40 submachineguns. The Russians matched their Tokarev pistols (Browning clone) with their submachineguns.

There are .45acp SMG's.  But the general caliber swing has (until very recently) been to pick the 9mm.  This has very little to do with the 9mm being better, but an attempt of Standardization throughout NATO and Allied countries.  It was foolish of us to limit ourselves to the weaknesses of European countries.

Even with this, there has been a "Back to the Roots" movement of the US forces of a desire of .45 over 9mm in handguns.  Would the SMG's be popular among the standard infantry, I believe we'd be seeing the same kind of sentiment for 9mm.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Viking
Then why is the .45 not the preferred ammo of military submachineguns and pistols today? Why hasn't other nation tried to copy the .45 ACP cartridge for their own post-WWII weapons?

The reason is the .45 is not the ideal pistol cartridge for military use. It has virtually no penetrating power compared to 9 mm Parabellum and other military pistol cartridges. The .45 ACP's only redeeming feature is that is is somewhat better in suppressed weapons since the bullet is already almost sub-sonic and thus keeps more of its energy compared to higher velocity rounds like the 9mm P. The 9 mm Parabellum has a very good balance of stopping power, penetration and low recoil. Perfect for military application the 9mm is almost in universal use throughout the world ... including America.

As for handgun match the Germans had their P38 pistol, widely regarded as the finest pistol of WWII, and it fired the same 9 mm round as their MP38 and MP40 submachineguns. The Russians matched their Tokarev pistols (Browning clone) with their submachineguns.

Viking, you should be aware that the biggest reason for going to 9MM in the U.S. military is to streamline the NATO ammunition supply. You should also be aware that 9MM, especially in the 115 grain ball style ammunition, has a nasty reputation for failure to stop combatants. Further, the 45ACP has been retained by some of the elite military units because of the various problems with 9MM.

[lasersailor184]

Beat you by one minute!

[Viking]

Tell me, what army has adopted the .45 besides the US Army? Has any other army adopted a similar pistol/SMG round? If not, why do you think that is? Why would the ammo of the LOSING nation of WWII become NATO's standard round?

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Viking
Tell me, what army has adopted the .45 besides the US Army? Has any other army adopted a similar pistol/SMG round? If not, why do you think that is? Why would the ammo of the LOSING nation of WWII become NATO's standard round?

I counter with this:  Which country has the best army in the world?  


You don't look for solutions from the third rate armies, but those from the best.

[Viking]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I counter with this:  Which country has the best army in the world?  

Israel. And they use the 9 mm Parabellum.