Originally posted by Motherland
Dogfights, based on veterans or not, also claimed that the P-47 had a better climb rate than the Bf. 109, which is just impossible. Id take anything with a grain of salt.
Also remember that Luftwaffe pilots, by the time the Americans arrived, were poorly experienced and may not have been able to push their 109's 'to the edge' like American pilots could their 51's and 47's, which could have made it seem like the 51 was a more capable plane in the horizontal than the 109.
Climb rate is very dependent upon altitude. In WWII, most combat centered on the bombers, and the bombers were usually well above 20,000 feet. Indeed, a typical B-17 mission was as high as 28,000 feet. This meant that the escorts were usually higher, between 30k and 35k. Up there, the P-47 outclasses the 109, any 109. The P-47 was engineered to perform at high altitudes, and it certainly does. When WWII P-47 pilots talk about combat, they are generally talking about high altitude, where the P-47 was supreme. Even the most zealous P-51 pilots grudgingly admit the Jug was the better fighter up high.
Here's a challenge. Meet me at 25k in a 109K. I'll take a P-47D-40. Starting at 300 mph TAS level, we will both pull into a climb (use auto-climb for best rate). You will see that the P-47 beats the 109K to 30k by several seconds and to 35k by considerably more. Initially, the Jug zooms a bit better. When both stabilize, their climb rates at 27k are virtually identical. However, as they continue to climb, the P-47 does not suffer a power drop off. The 109K does, and starts to lose ground as altitude increases. Above 30k, the 109k starts to fall off quickly and the P-47 simply checks out. So, at the altitude where the Jug was designed to fight, yeah it does out-climb the 109s.
Another thing to consider is that the P-47's great mass allows it an advantage in a zoom climb, where momentum is a significant factor. As an example, testing shows the A-20G will chase down a Co-E 109K in a vertical zoom climb. Obviously, at best steady state climb speeds/angles, the 109K will leave the A-20G behind quickly. Not so in a pure vertical zoom climb, where mass is a considerable portion of the energy equation. Many 109 drivers have been surprised when a big A-20 actually closes on them in a vertical climb. I've seen enough exclamations of "BS" in the text buffer to know that the 109 pilot had no clue about what had actually happened.
So, it's important to understand the context of a WWII pilot's remarks. Down low, the 109 out-climbs the P-47 without drama. The higher up you go, the less the difference becomes, until finally the P-47 has the advantage. Since little combat occurs at high alts in the game, most pilots don't encounter Jugs way up in the thin air. So, your belief is quite common.
Also, you are correct that Luftwaffe quality degraded significantly as the war progressed into middle 1944. However, the Luftwaffe suffered badly even when the quality of pilots was much higher. This was simply due to having to fight at high altitudes in planes generally engineered for middle altitude combat. The common 109 variants flying in late 1943 were badly outclassed at 30k by the P-47D and and P-51B, both engineered for precisely that purpose. Even the P-38s were very capable at high altitudes, although their relatively low critical Mach prevented them from chasing after diving 109s and 190s.
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