something from Dogfights

[hubsonfire]

Humble, out of curiousity, are you a pilot? Real pilot, I mean, not in a sim.

[Yeager]

Im a pilot.  I fly world war II aeroplanes online at AcesHigh.  Not only that,  but I am a tank driver and gunner too!  I actually gain real life combat experience online killing real human opponents.  Well, ......they dont really die...and....I dont really fly a plane or drive a tank.......but...but....its just as real as if I really did, and the combat training I get is even better than the combat training those old geezers got back in teh day.  Im a lethal internet combat juggernaut!

[John Curnutte]

I can only imagine if those guys in WW2 had computers to practise on it would have been horrendous on all fronts , LOL really different I'd guess .
 As Always A Nutte

[humble]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Humble, out of curiousity, are you a pilot? Real pilot, I mean, not in a sim.

I have time in a 152/172 and was actually set to fly harriers for the marine corp (my Dad was 5,000 hr GIB) but my vision went south...I have some unusual attitude procedure/recovery time in a T-28A (obviously not as a PIC:)). I actually went to the 99 AW con in part because I was considering getting involved in acrobatics etc (Moss and I spent some time checking out various planes there). In the end general aviation proved to boring and my wife nixed the other (+ cost was a factor)...so I pilot horses instead:).

I basically grew up at cherry point and willowgrove NAS...

[hubsonfire]

So, you are a pilot? Licensed private, military training, something?

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Oldman731
While there's no doubt that simulators teach valuable lessons that can be applied in the real world, computer technology is not (yet?) to the point where it can duplicate the effects of G forces on our bodies.  In my limited experience, that makes a very big difference.  I recall one account by an American P-51 pilot who was in an extended turning fight with a German plane.  His oxygen mask was slipping down his face, he was getting nauseous, his arm was hurting, and those things nearly forced him to change the tactics he was using (if I remember correctly, the German changed first).  It's all well and good for us to repeatedly dive and loop and ride the edge of blackout in our mock combats, but we really shouldn't kid ourselves that we would be able to sustain that for long in a real airplane.  

- oldman

Well said.  I was just going to point this out but now I don't have to.

I will, however, make another analogy.  For a very long time I played racing games.  I was very very good... always fast.

One year my brother was visiting.  We decided to go karting at the local indoor track.  I had never driven a go-kart but I knew I'd be good.

These things were fast... probably 40-45 mph on a large, 11 turn course.

My first laps were dismal at best, and while I did improve, there was a huge difference in going into a 90 degree turn on a slick course in real-life vs. doing it in a game.  After 16 minutes I was drenched with sweat, both from the adrenaline as well as the constant throttle/brake/turning/(although minimal) G forces not to mention faster karts bumping me from behind trying to get around me.  I never sweat playing the games on my computer.  Sure I knew the lines and brake/throttle points but that wasn't enough.

Now, imagine this relative change but moving into a high performance fighter aircraft pulling 7G's inverted.

You might know the ACM but I'd go with the guy who's done it for real.  I wouldn't give any of us a chance.

[humble]

Yeager you simply dont understand the realities. To many of the guys who flew and fought in WW2 and Korea true combat ACM was somewhat of a mystery...even to the guys doing it. A very small % of the active combat pilots were really "Stick & rudder" men comfortable with the plane at all attitudes and conditions. Most had little advanced acrobatics or understanding of true "dog fighting".

Most aircombat was decided by initial positioning and who saw who 1st. Many attacks consisted of a single pass thru an enemy formation and home...extended engagements were somewhat rare. Normally an "ace" would "lock on" to a lesser pilot and quickly finish him or planes would make passes and go...many pilots with significant victory totals had 100+ "combats with fewer then 10 kills. Pilots simply kept speed and jousted and then went home.

Remember Shaw wrote the bible on fighter combat for real pilots...the flight sim hadnt even been invented. This was a guy trying to actually put in one place all the wisdom that was accumulated but not systematically recorded. Just having the book would have greatly improved any pilots chances way back when...but to have a simulator where you can put it in practice is unreal.

To a degree you can see this IRL when an AH pilot goes and takes a familiarization flight in a real plane. Almost invariably the instructor will comment on the prospective students coordinated turn and ask how many hours do you have?

your looking at the physical aspect of combat flying not the more important mental ones. Your also confusing what seperated the real aces from the rest....which had nothing to do with ability to withstand G forces...even the guys like Pappy who talked the tense the muscles stuff. All you need to do is ask the guys who flew with him or any ace. They had great vision...

Going back to Robin Olds...who had to fight like hell to get a combat slot in Vietnam. What amazed the guys under him was he was always 1st to visually tally a bandit almost 100% of the time. Even in the jet age with al the advanced avionics etc what made him deadly in the 40's is still what made him deadly almost 30 yrs later.

[humble]

I think you guys are taking this out of context. not one out of a thousand who fly AH could get a real warbird off the ground...even those with 500 hrs of general aviation stick time. Thats not the point I was making at all.

If however you took a bunch of guys in basic and had 1/2 of them fly AH for 3 hours a day and had the other half with 15 hrs additional stick time...then went to advanced trainers and then to a fighter...

you'd have 2 sets of guys...

1 set with 400 hrs in all "real planes" but no real disimiliar plane combat experience

the 2nd set with 300 hrs in real life (but who had passed all standards as the 1st) but had 100 hrs of "combat sim" time vs disimiliar aircraft in variable E states etc (typical AH) and then put them in real combat the 2nd group would decimate the 1st.

Why do you think the army, navy & airforce spend millions on simulator training...it works.

[hubsonfire]

You should point that out to the AF, USMC, and Navy. They could save billions by telling their personnel to play AH every day in lieu of actual training or sim time.

[Yeager]

Im sorry humble.  I dont take AH seriously anymore.  For me it is pure entertainment.  If I am not having fun I simply log off.  

I used to be very serious about it, and I recognize that you and alot of other people take it seriously.  I hope you can understand how I get a bit of a laugh out of the seriousness of it.  

I agree with your points.  "Flying" see!........there I go again...."Playing" AH, and alot of other entertainment based computer flight simulations, is definately educational in many regards to the science and art of actual powered flight.

Safe Hunting

[wreckedem]

Originally posted by Oldman731
While there's no doubt that simulators teach valuable lessons that can be applied in the real world, computer technology is not (yet?) to the point where it can duplicate the effects of G forces on our bodies.  In my limited experience, that makes a very big difference.  I recall one account by an American P-51 pilot who was in an extended turning fight with a German plane.  His oxygen mask was slipping down his face, he was getting nauseous, his arm was hurting, and those things nearly forced him to change the tactics he was using (if I remember correctly, the German changed first).  It's all well and good for us to repeatedly dive and loop and ride the edge of blackout in our mock combats, but we really shouldn't kid ourselves that we would be able to sustain that for long in a real airplane.  

- oldman

I also suspect that my glass of Beaujolais would also likely have spilled, and my snack tray would have also been upset.

Without these things, my flying - well, actually, it would probably be better, but I might not enjoy myself as much!

[toonces3]

Agree with humble 100%.

You guys are really selling the skills you pick up in this game short.

Playing AH will not make you a fighter pilot.  However, there is no question (in my mind) that the skills practiced in AH would absolutely translate to improved fighter skills, and would have improved any fighter pilot's performance in WW2.

For Hub's sake, I will tell you that the Navy has (finally) recognized the value of MS Flight Simulator for training its pilots.  This might have come as a surprise to the Navy brass, but for folks like me that have been simming forever this was old news.  

In primary flight school I spent literally hundreds of hours flying simulated basic instruments and radio navigation flights at home before the graded event.  In advanced, most of the time the instructor would give the student the airports for the next day's events.  I'd go home, load up a kingair and fly 50 approaches into San Antonio or Corpus or wherever.  There is simply no substitute for going into a flight having shot the approach a hundred times the day before.  You're not fighting the approach when the instructor gives you an engine fire on final or calls a deer on the runway for a missed approach- you already have it second nature.

Translate this to fighter skills.  How many times did the real P-51 driver go up against a Bf-109G14 before his first engagement?  Do you think if he could go 'offline' in a simulator like AH, with a mockup cockpit, a good stick and throttle, and a trackir, and fly about 500 engagements against a simulated Bf109 he wouldn't come away far more experienced when he had to do it in 'real life'?

Of course there are any number of realities that can't be neglected.  The sim time doesn't make up for real flight time.  But it absolutely is an aid to real flying.  If you've learned the basics of ACM online and then go into a fighter, sure you're pulling G's and have all these other real world distractions that make it immeasurably harder, but you're not learning everything from scratch.

FWIW, jet training includes a ton of hours of sim time in formation training and other training (some jet guy would have to give the specifics).  For P-3's, I probably have 300 hours or more of sim time flying approaches, doing emergencies and tactical flights, etc.  Most airlines train their new pilots on sims exclusively- their first 'real' flight is one with passengers in back.  Such is the fidelity of sims that these guys don't touch actual controls until the real deal.

[hubsonfire]

MSFS might be useful, but it's not AH, and the things you practiced in it don't even exist in AH. Also, you presumably used it as practice, instead of learning solely from the game. We don't have realistic startup, shutdown, landing, patterns, weather, etc etc, and there's no penalty for any mistakes.

 We may acquire a lot of knowledge with regards to planes, relative performance, gunnery, etc, but we're doing that with the experiences of those real pilots, and we're likely picking that up from time with a trainer (some of whom are real pilots themselves), or reading, or watching films, again from people who are often real pilots, or at the very least people with considerable experience in sims. Most importantly, IMO, that occurs outside the game. I could learn those same things without ever flying a single sortie.

Now, I would agree that flying a simulator against trained opponents, in addition to real training, would be a benefit, but AH is not that simulator, and the opponents in AH are not, for the most part, pilots with any experience whatsoever. Saying that you would benefit in a real world situation because you have a few hundred completely unrealistic engagements against completely untrained opponents is just completely bull****.

[Ghastly]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
... Saying that you would benefit in a real world situation because you have a few hundred completely unrealistic engagements against completely untrained opponents is just completely bull****.

I don't see how you can even make that statement with a straight face, even behind a computer screen - that's why sims are used for training in the first place.  And with respect to "learning it without flying it" that's just plain silly - your mind may "think it knows it" but your muscles sure don't.  If that was the case they'd simply drill pilots (and other professions requiring significant hand and eye skills) using book knowledge on the ground (where it's both cheaper and safer) and not give them the controls until they were all done learning.

On the other hand, I think you are also 100% correct - some of us are placing MORE (probably way more) emphasis on the importance of what we think we know from our AH experience than is probably warranted.  

A good analogy is a very simple one... a great video game marksman is often a much poorer marksman in real life.  A real guns kicks, your shoulder hurts,  and gun smoke is acrid and stings if it gets in your eyes, and the wind blows and it's HARD to hold the rifle barrel steady - among at least a hundred other little things that make it different.  

[hubsonfire]

If all of the AH engagements were even moderately realistic, and if all of the pilots were formally trained, it would certainly have some value. In fact, it would be of such value that the armed forces would almost certainly use it. As it stands though, the opposite is true. The fights aren't realistic, and with a few exceptions, no one is formally trained as a combat pilot.

How could this be useful in a real aerial engagement?