Author Topic: Ki-84 U.S. testing  (Read 5482 times)

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2008, 04:01:22 PM »
Don't know Pappy for the Japanese doc starts with 1946, so would guess it is American data.



BigPlay ever hear of an American named Northrop? Check out his B-35.

Yah I've heard of Jack Northrop, I met his son at an air show that the N9B flew at. However the Horton brothers were the first to get the wing design flying not Mr. Northrop.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2008, 03:52:48 PM »
Since this was bumped, I'll reply.

Charge: Often it's a matter of simple changes. P51s and P47s using 150 octane changed out spark plugs. Bf109s simply changed some timer somewhere, swapped out the plugs, and all of a sudden were using 1.98 ata instead of 1.8 ata. It's not that the gas alone improves performance, but the gas allows greater MAP (throttle) settings.


On the Ho229:

Forget the post war Northrop wings, look earlier. In the late '30s they built the N-1M flying wing.

In the early 1930s a guy named Freeling in San Franciso built a small flying wing model and then later a full scale model and flew it. I didn't know about this one until I saw it on Wiki.

Junkers had a model in 1918 or so for a flying wing transport, and started construction, only to have it destroyed for violating the end-of-war treaties (size limitations). This one I heard about before checking wiki  ;)

You'll note the one prototype for the Ho 229 crashed in Feb 1945 after about 2 hours of flight time, due to an engine fire and only one other prototype was even close to completion as alies over-ran the factories.

EDIT: Just ran across this after posting:

"Many of those who were actually building the Ho IX doubted that it would have ever flown successfully anyway."
from www.centennialofflight.gov
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 03:59:46 PM by Krusty »

Offline SgtPappy

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2008, 04:32:01 PM »
Since this is still here...

Does anyone know if the U.S. tested Ki-84 needed some kind of modification to the engine or something else in order to hit the mythical performance figure of 427 mph?
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2008, 02:08:08 AM »
"Many of those who were actually building the Ho IX doubted that it would have ever flown successfully anyway."
from www.centennialofflight.gov

Yet it did. Though not with jet engines.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2008, 09:26:59 AM »
Yet it did. Though not with jet engines.

One might take that (most might take that) to mean it wasn't a success....

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2008, 01:57:43 PM »



On the Ho229:

Forget the post war Northrop wings, look earlier. In the late '30s they built the N-1M flying wing.

In the early 1930s a guy named Freeling in San Franciso built a small flying wing model and then later a full scale model and flew it. I didn't know about this one until I saw it on Wiki.

Junkers had a model in 1918 or so for a flying wing transport, and started construction, only to have it destroyed for violating the end-of-war treaties (size limitations). This one I heard about before checking wiki  ;)

You'll note the one prototype for the Ho 229 crashed in Feb 1945 after about 2 hours of flight time, due to an engine fire and only one other prototype was even close to completion as alies over-ran the factories.

EDIT: Just ran across this after posting:

"Many of those who were actually building the Ho IX doubted that it would have ever flown successfully anyway."
from www.centennialofflight.gov
[/quote]

Here is a better website and a clip of some of it's verbage. It indicates that an engine stall caused the crash, not an engine fire and was said to have flown sucessfully.


Now the only Horten 229 to ever fly were the Horten 229 V2 prototype that were powered by two Jumo 004 jet engines. It was a successfull aircraft, but after a rough landing it were grounded until repairs have been made, but after the repairs were made the test pilot Erwin Ziller ignored the orders of the Horten brothers not to fly until they were there he did it anyway and that proved to be his last flight. The aircraft stalled and crashed killing him and destroying the only powered Horten 229 prototype. This meant that the Horten brothers had to wait even longer to be able to get things properly up and running.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-requests/horton-brothers-flying-wings-3618.html

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2008, 02:02:10 PM »

Here is the story of the whole project. This is from the NASM website that also had interviews with the Horten brothers about their work, It is also on tape, their explanation for not restoring the Horten 229 V3 is that they are waiting for their new facility to be completed, this will all in all take 7 years.


Quote:
In 1943 the all-wing Horten 229 promised spectacular performance and the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) chief, Hermann Gring, allocated half-a-million Reich Marks to the brothers Reimar and Walter Horten to build and fly several prototypes. Numerous technical problems beset this unique design and the only powered example crashed after several test flights but the airplane remains one of the most unusual combat aircraft tested during World War II. (Note to the reader: Horten used roman numerals to identify his designs and he followed the German aircraft industry practice of using 'Versuch,' literally test or experiment, numbers to describe pre-production prototypes built to test and develop a new design into a production airplane. The Horten IX design became the Horten Ho 229 aircraft program after Gring granted the project official status in 1943 and the technical office of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium assigned to it the design number 229. This is also the nomenclature used in official German documents).

The idea for the Horten IX grew first in the mind of Walter Horten when he was serving in the Luftwaffe as a fighter pilot engaged in combat in 1940 during the Battle of Britain. Horten was the technical officer for Jadgeschwader (fighter squadron) 26 stationed in France. The nature of the battle and the tactics employed by the Germans spotlighted the design deficiencies of the Messerschmitt Bf 109, Germany 's most advanced fighter airplane at that time. The Luftwaffe pilots had to fly across the English Channel or the North Sea to fulfill their missions escorting German bombers and attacking British fighters and Horten watched his unit lose many men over hostile territory at the very limit of the airplane's combat radius. Often after just a few minutes flying in combat, the Germans frequently had to turn back to their bases or run out of fuel and this lack of endurance severely limited their effectiveness. The Messerschmitt was also vulnerable because it had just a single engine. One bullet could puncture almost any part of the cooling system and when this happened, the engine could continue to function for only a few minutes before it overheated and seized up. Walter Horten came to believe that the Luftwaffe needed a new fighter designed with performance superior to the Spitfire, Britain's most advanced fighter. The new airplane required sufficient range to fly to England, loiter for a useful length of time and engage in combat, and then return safely to occupied Europe. He understood that only a twin-engine aircraft could give pilots a reasonable chance of returning with substantial battle damage or even the loss of one engine.

Since 1933, and interrupted only by military service, Walter and Reimar had experimented with all-wing aircraft. With Walter's help, Reimar had used his skills as a mathematician and designer to overcome many of the limitations of this exotic configuration. Walter believed that Reimar could design an all-wing fighter with significantly better combat performance than the Spitfire. The new fighter needed a powerful, robust propulsion system to give the airplane great speed but also one that could absorb damage and continue to function. The Nazis had begun developing rocket, pulse-jet, and jet turbine configurations by 1940 and Walter's role as squadron technical officer gave him access to information about these advanced programs. He soon concluded that if his brother could design a fighter propelled by two small and powerful engines and unencumbered by a fuselage or tail, very high performance was possible.

At the end of 1940, Walter shared his thoughts on the all-wing fighter with Reimar who fully agreed with his brother's assessment and immediately set to work on the new fighter. Fiercely independent and lacking the proper intellectual credentials, Reimar worked at some distance from the mainstream German aeronautical community. At the start of his career, he was denied access to wind tunnels due to the cost but also because of his young age and lack of education, so he tested his ideas using models and piloted aircraft. By the time the war began, Reimar actually preferred to develop his ideas by building and testing full-size aircraft. The brothers had already successfully flown more than 20 aircraft by 1941 but the new jet wing would be heavier and faster than any previous Horten design. To minimize the risk of experimenting with such an advanced aircraft, Reimar built and tested several interim designs, each one moderately faster, heavier, or more advanced in some significant way than the one before it.

Reimar built the Horten V b and V c to evaluate the all-wing layout when powered by twin engines driving pusher propellers. He began in 1941 to consider fitting the Dietrich-Argus pulse jet motor to the Horten V but this engine had drawbacks and in the first month of 1942, Walter gave his brother dimensioned drawings and graphs that charted the performance curves of the new Junkers 004 jet turbine engine (this engine is also fitted to these NASM aircraft: Messerschmitt Me 262, Arado Ar 234, and the Heinkel He 162). Later that year, Reimar flew a new design called the Horten VII that was similar to the Horten V but larger and equipped with more powerful reciprocating engines. The Horten VI ultra-high performance sailplane also figured into the preliminary aerodynamic design of the jet flying wing after Reimar tested this aircraft with a special center section.

Walter used his personal connections with important officials to keep the idea of the jet wing alive in the early stages of its development. General Ernst Udet, Chief of Luftwaffe Procurement and Supply and head of the Technical Office was the man who protected this idea and followed this idea for the all-wing fighter for almost a year until Udet took his own life in November 1941. At the beginning of 1943, Walter heard Gring complain that Germany was fielding 17 different types of twin-engine military airplanes with similar, and rather mediocre, performance but parts were not interchangeable between any two designs. He decreed that henceforth he would not approve for production another new twin-engine airplane unless it could carry 1,000 kg (2,210 lb) of bombs to a penetration depth' of 1,000 km (620 miles, penetration depth defined as 1/3 the range ) at a speed of 1,000 km/h (620 mph). Asked to comment, Reimar announced that only a warplane equipped with jet engines had a chance to meet those requirements.

In August Reimar submitted a short summary of an all-wing design that came close to achieving Gring's specifications. He issued the brothers a contract, and then demanded the new aircraft fly in 3 months! Reimar responded that the first Horten IX prototype could fly in six months and Gring accepted this schedule after revealing his desperation to get the new fighter in the air with all possible speed. Reimar believed that he had boosted the Reichsmarschall's confidence in his work after he told him that his all-wing jet bomber was based on data obtained from bona fide flight tests with piloted aircraft.

Official support had now been granted to the first all-wing Horten airplane designed specifically for military applications but the jet bomber that the Horten brothers began to design was much different from the all-wing pure fighter that Walter had envisioned nearly four years earlier as the answer to the Luftwaffe's needs for a long-range interceptor. Hencefourth, the official designation for airplanes based on the Horten IX design changed to Horten Ho 229 suffixed with Versuch' numbers to designate the various prototypes.

Hope this helps 

Offline Krusty

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2008, 03:35:23 PM »
Some rather biased wording/language there....

Anyways, that puts to bed the propoganda that the Nothrop designs were directly taken from the Ho229.

However, the original design was dreamed up by somebody with no education in the matter. Keep that in mind. A lot of odd designs can fly, but I promise you it was no super weapon, it was not some 1000km plane, and it would not have flown better than a spitfire (HAH!!)

Those guys were totally dreaming. The world needs dreamers, but the hype they receive after-the-fact is about as bad as the He162's hype, and the Do335's hype, and any other luft '46 plane's hype. It's an odd phenomenon, but there's this cult of exaggeration on all luft '46 designs.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2008, 04:43:14 PM »
Those are not my words, there from the mentioned website. Who cares if it was no better than a spit at that point. It had far greater potential than any piston driven aircraft had and if the war had continued I'm sure a capible version would have show up. By the end of WW2 piston driven aircraft had reached it's zenith as far as performance went. The U.S. did try to advance piston driven performance and only could get so far. The jet airplane was the future and the germans had the edge. I also didn't say the Horton brothers came up with the design either. I said they were the first to get a flying jet version off the ground.

P.S. I spoke with Adolf Dickfield who flew the He162 in combat and scored a victory on a P-47. He liked the plane but said the problem was with the glue that was used.He said he barely landed the plane after that sortie because the glue was failing and plywood was pealing off the plane. If you remember the allies  bombedthe factory that made the special glue that was to be used on all wooden built aircraft. The factory was destroyed alongwith all the sceintist and the glue formula. The germans were never able to reproduce the glue again.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 04:57:31 PM by BigPlay »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2008, 11:52:27 PM »
I also didn't say the Horton brothers came up with the design either. I said they were the first to get a flying jet version off the ground.

No you didn't.

Quote
The Flying wing was another design started by the Horton brothers and was flying at wars end, not in operational service but flying .

No mention of jet power.

Offline BnZ

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2008, 01:26:15 AM »


Those guys were totally dreaming. The world needs dreamers, but the hype they receive after-the-fact is about as bad as the He162's hype, and the Do335's hype, and any other luft '46 plane's hype. It's an odd phenomenon, but there's this cult of exaggeration on all luft '46 designs.

The whole "never know what those mad German scientists are going to throw at us" makes great dramatization, comic book fair(The Red Skull!), and historical(hysterical?) speculation on the History channel about the Germans being an inch from taking over the world with nuclear armed bombers with the range to strike America.

BTW, practically everything at luft46.com is ugly, jet-powered, or impossible except this http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwbmw802.html hot little number. The Krauts obviously derived it from the Corsair of course (Or was the Corsair derived from it, I forget how it is supposed to work?) :D

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2008, 01:31:34 AM »
One might take that (most might take that) to mean it wasn't a success....

Then "one" or "most" would be dimwitted. The war ended before the jet prototype was completed.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2008, 11:31:04 AM »
No you didn't.

No mention of jet power.

OK who got their wing flying before them ? Please don't relive the flight of the Phoenix, models don't count. I went back and checked my past post, your right no mention of jet powered.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2008, 12:13:16 PM »
The whole "never know what those mad German scientists are going to throw at us" makes great dramatization, comic book fair(The Red Skull!), and historical(hysterical?) speculation on the History channel about the Germans being an inch from taking over the world with nuclear armed bombers with the range to strike America.

BTW, practically everything at luft46.com is ugly, jet-powered, or impossible except this http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwbmw802.html hot little number. The Krauts obviously derived it from the Corsair of course (Or was the Corsair derived from it, I forget how it is supposed to work?) :D

Remember one thing......  there would not have been a space program if it weren't for Werner Von Braun and his team. Just like the Russian's wouldn't have had one either. Now would we read about them in the DC or Marvel comic books.