Are you good enough to tell when a player won't HO?

[toonces3]

Hi all.

I've been experimenting with this with moderate success.  Actually not much success.

For the most part, I don't HO.  It really depends on the situation.  For example, in almost any 1v1 engagement I won't HO.  In a total furball situation, I might HO, or might not, depending on what I'm flying, what the other guy is flying, how badly I'm outnumbered, etc.

I'm really interesting in the 1v1 or very, very loose furball where you have a clear merge with your opponent.

When I'm merging against an enemy plane 1v1 that I don't intend to HO, I set up like this:  We'll approach generally nose to nose.  About 1.5-1.0k out I'll roll my wings briefly and go off nose, in a left turning plane I'll bump out right.  I intentionally roll wings and bump my nose off of the guy, sometimes I'll add a little nose low or high, so that the enemy con can clearly see that I've moved so that my nose isn't pointing at him.  

I've seen other planes do something similar, or at least I've been able to tell that they're not pointing EXACTLY at me.  

When I see this in another plane, I will definately hold off on the shot because I know the guy has maneuvered to avoid a HO and a collision.

The best example I can think of was a fight I had with TIME2DIE a few nights ago.  I was in an A-20 at about 7k.  He was approaching nose on in a Spit 16.  We were clearly nose to nose and I had him sitting in my gunsight.  I was deep in his territory over his base, so I was sort of waiting to see if he would open up or not because I knew I could take a hit, while his spit would die to my 50's.  About 600-800 out, maybe 1.0k out, I saw him roll wings and go nose to the side, so I knew he wasn't going to shoot.  Even though I could've bumped left and opened up, I didn't shoot and instead let the merge happen.  Of course a few seconds later I lost the fight and got shot down, but the point was to have the fight, not just hose him and hope for the kill.  

By watching his plane, I knew he intentionally maneuvered to avoid a HO, and so I obliged by not HO'ing.

Last night I had the exact opposite experience in the AvA, where I got HO'd by every last plane that passed me, even when I clearly maneuvered to not HO (in a 110 no less).  The best was against 1BDSPADE.  On our merge I went a bit nose low and to the right.  1.0k out I started seeing tracers all over so at 400 out I bumped the nose up and plastered him.  I didn't want to, I wanted to fight, but he just couldn't help himself, or couldn't tell I wasn't going to HO him.

So, the question is, if are you good enough to tell when someone is maneuvering in a manner to merge but NOT HO?  Am I wasting my time with this avoidance maneuver?  

I think I can tell when someone is doing it to me, but maybe not.  Maybe some folks just see it as an opportunity for a free HO.

[Max]

Originally posted by toonces3
Hi all.


So, the question is, if are you good enough to tell when someone is maneuvering in a manner to merge but NOT HO?  Am I wasting my time with this avoidance maneuver?  


 

If your bogey is still pointed at your nose at d1500, chances are he's lining up a head on.

[FALCONWING]

I use the following equation to tell if an enemy plane won't HO...

Flying against rooks:

If the tail of the airplane is closer to me then the nose...not gonna HO

If the nose of the airplane is closer to me then the tail...100% HO

Flying against Knights:

If the tail of the airplane is closer to me then the nose...not gonna HO

If the nose of the airplane is closer to me then the tail...100% HO

There are exceptions...for example a c-47...then i use the same equation but substitute ramming for HO.

What really is annoying are the GV HO'ers...i can't remember once when they were cool enough to turnfight for a legitimate six shot...even when i obviously turned my nose away on merge.  Tigers are the worst and shold be banned forever

[dedalos]

Originally posted by toonces3
.

Last night I had the exact opposite experience in the AvA, where I got HO'd by every last plane that passed me, even when I clearly maneuvered to not HO (in a 110 no less).  The best was against 1BDSPADE.  On our merge I went a bit nose low and to the right.  1.0k out I started seeing tracers all over so at 400 out I bumped the nose up and plastered him.  I didn't want to, I wanted to fight, but he just couldn't help himself, or couldn't tell I wasn't going to HO him.
.

The AvA.  What did you expect?

The only way to make sure you avoid it is to set up a merge that is no where near HO.  I can show you if you want and have the time.  Otherwise, I do what you did but sometimes it is misleading because what you may be seeing is either a noob adjusting for the shot or a pro HOer making sure that he can kick rudder at the last second and safely shoot you.

Let me know.  Its a good move to have anyway.

[whiteman]

Falconwing's equation seems about right. I've run across enough the last month that I'll return the favor now.

[Spikes]

I can tell...

When I can't see the nose of the enemy plane in my gunsight, he's not gunna HO.

[BaldEagl]

If they are not getting seperation for the merge expect the HO/deflection.  If they are expect the fight.

[AquaShrimp]

I usually fly offset a few degrees on the merge.  For instance, I will turn slightly to the bandit's right.  If he corrects and gets his nose on me, at about 1k I will roll to my right, and start a diving turn to the bandit's left.

I know I didn't describe this very good, but it makes it hard for the bandit to get a good shot on me.  He has to pull negative G's and turn.

[SlapShot]

I take into consideration that they will be HOing 98% of the time (regardless of chess piece affiliation), so I don't try to guess ... I just concentrate on my opening move, which hopefully sets me up for a lead turn at the merge, and at the same time, doesn't give them an opening for the HO. So, if they do come for the HO or don't ... makes no difference to me.

This technique works well for me ... I rarely get taken out by a HO ... they might get a couple of pings on the tail, but rarely enough to put an end to what will happen next.

[shreck]

I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!! I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!!  Just my $.02:rofl  Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by SpikesX
I can tell...

When I can't see the nose of the enemy plane in my gunsight, he's not gunna HO.

pretty good analogy, I guess......

but you got to ask yourself? Just because the opponent looks like he is fixing to Shoot Me in a HO or faceshot situation, do I have to drop to his level and do the same in return? or should I use his faceshot attempt against him to gain angles 1st !

everyone will HO at one time or another.......even the ones who say they never do.......

I like to take a HO shot at the ones who continously HO , extend & reverse, HO, extend & reverse, HO,  I give about 3 chances then I pull to them and Blast em....then might suggest they learn better tactics.....not all time, only when I am feeling kind of moody.....

but there are many sub-levels of skill to the different type players of this game....where 80+ % of them will HO most times...the top 20% will only HO when odds are against them being outnumbered, or  just to get a rise out of someone

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by toonces3
Are you good enough to tell when a player won't HO?

Always fly with assumption the other guy is going to HO, no matter what their "skill" level is.  This way when you merge, you do so with seperation between you two and no HO shot.


ack-ack

[Stang]

Originally posted by shreck
I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!! I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!!  Just my $.02:rofl  Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.

Shush, you HO dweeb.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by shreck
I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!! I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!!  Just my $.02:rofl  Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.

Now don't take this the wrong way, but ...

It may be a "clean merge", but not what I would consider a "smart merge", more like a "sloppy merge".

If you want to give me a window for a deflection shot at the merge, then I will take that shot every time ... all day long.

There are exceptions to this ... if I know that Eagler is in the area in a 109F, or cobia38/snaphook is around with in their A-20s, or AKAK is around in his P-38 ... etc, but if I don't know this ahead of time, I will take that high-deflection shot.

The "merge" I try to achieve does not present a guns solution for my enemy and at the same time, sets me up for opening angles that will hopefully put me in the "advantage" position.

[Ghastly]

What you've described - keep him in the 10 to 11 o'c - is how I set up nearly every fight given the opportunity, whether the guy "appears to intend" to HO or not.

I actually prefer it when they try to HO me. I When they do so, they give me 30-45' of angle nearly every time, and sometimes more - and unless he's pretty good, I'm around on him for at least one shot before it devolves into a turn fight.  It's when the guy I'm fighting sets up for a lead turn in a better turning aircraft that I know I'm likely to be in doodoo.

_____________________________ _________________

Now, having said that, when I'm being pressed, or when I lack the time to choose the positioning I'd prefer, I'm going to take what shot opportunity I have.