)#(@)! PEOPLE! ( A rant)

[lazs2]

I have done it before when a contractor.  

I have asked the homeowner the same questions.   You bid the work.   You tell them what is involved.  If they think you are cutting corners then they can pay extra to use whatever their vast experience tells them you need to use. or... they can do it themselves since they obviously know what is the right and wrong way to do the job.

lazs

[Druss]

Being a DIY nut, if I can do the job myself, I will. But if I can't (or I screw it up) I will call in a pro without hesitation. When choosing a pro, I rely almost totally on
the opinions of my neighbors and co-workers. I absolutely will NOT patronize a business that has ill-treated someone I know and trust. In turn, I reccomend or not based on my experiences when I am asked.

Living in a smallish town (Cheyenne) has its perks. Businesses here don't survive long if they screw their customers.

[forHIM]

Back to Dred's rant/gripe --

Customers are a pain, but don't you have a written process to proceed with a job?  IE customer has to sign a copy of the estimate that has the legal verbiage that cancellation with less than X days of notice is subject to cost of Y percentage of job?  Typically if the agreement to do the job is in person, they expect a down payment also.  

I'm leery of contractors who don't seem to follow good business practices regarding obtaining payment.  If I get a quote that doesn't require payment until the end, I'm suspicious of the quality and timeliness of the work.  I'd rather ensure that we have a binding agreement with the exchange of funds / paperwork so that if they agree in writing to X start date, it better by X start date and completion when they say there going to be done.

[Thruster]

For really involved projects, disclosure and stipulation is best put in writing but if somebody needs more than a handshake for $400.00 worth of work, they don't qualify.

Most of my stuff never winds up like it started, details change, scope of work evolves. Decisions are made in the field and executed immediately. I pale to consider what I'd have to charge if I documented half of the work I do. But like I said before, I work closely with customers usually in their homes. The people who I work with actually like not having to feel like they have to scrutinize and negotiate every detail. And they hate having to sign stuff. I keep the pressure low and so far it works 'bout all the time. The only times I have issues are when I break my own rules regarding the people I choose to work for.

[forHIM]

Got that Thruster, just my line of business entails billing rates around $150 to $300 per hour, so wasted hours, etc. really hurt both my business and the customers.  We try to ensure accurate statements of work prior to committing to an engagement and do a tedious change request process to ensure both companies are satisfied with the product/result at the end of the day.  Granted I'm not in the building trades, but in IT so a lot of what I wrote is carry over from having to deal day in and day out with people/companies in the IT field that like to whine and lowball/delay payment.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by culero
No, the point is that you don't employ him, you have no clue what his expenses in doing your work are, so you don't get to pay him wages. He will give you an estimate up front, you accept or decline. Either way, you have no grounds to whine about it, so just STFU.

Did I get that about right, Dred?

Thats about it yea.
I give a price for a job say for $400.
People only think. "wow" he's getting $400" as though I get to keep all That for myself. that its all profit.
What people dont see are all the expences involved and contingancies you have to plan for.

IF I was a schoolteacher I would know exactly how many days im getting paid for over the course of the year. I would know exactly how much I was going to make. and when I knew I woudlnt be working.

I could plan my finances accordingly.

Personally I have no sympathy for the wage complaints of teachers.
They for the most part make a damn good penny for the amount of days they have to work.

With me. I dont know from month to month or from year to year how much Im going to make until it happens.
And there are all sorts of things that can go wrong even in the busy months to effect that..
For example I could have a $10,000 exteriour planned for June. And I figure its going to take the entire month to do.
But if it rains every other day. Now that one month job just turned into a two month job. And if I havent had any interior work comming in. I sit those days..Without pay
Now instead of making 10 grand in one month. Im only making 5 grand that month. Or I could get delayed by a builder. Or any of a number of reasons.
Thats a hypothetical but I think you get the point that even if its busy and I have the work. That doesnt mean I can count on having X amount of dollars in X amount of time.

But during that time  excluding material costs I still have the same expences reguardless of how much I bring in.
Business and Van and health insurance still has to be paid. Maintenance still has to be done.  And then there is still the household related expences.

All which have to be paid no matter if I bring in $1K or $10K.

Now lets say I do get the job done in a month and I make the 10K.
Lets say. again hypothetically that my monthly expences are $5K
Ok now I have an extra 5 grand. Yippie
Toss that in the bank for hard times or unexpected repairs
You would be amazed how fast that 5 grand can evaporate. Even with a day or two off here or there. Or a vehicle breakdown It all adds up. before you realise it. Its gone.

Or you make 10 grand that month. but the next month is incredibly slow. Or a job falls though.
Now this instance was a pretty small job. only a few days work.

But I've also had it happen as a matter of fact in Jan of 07 where I was on the mans doorstep to start the job and he told me he changed his mind.
And this was something I figured was going to be 3 weeks worth of work. With nothing else scedualed or I coud start for 5 weeks.
Probably the closest I've ever come to having a nervous breakdown...or killing someone. LOL

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Sandman
I hate contractors. In my experience, they're generally like a bunch of nine-year olds. You have to keep on 'em, check behind their work because they'll cut corners, they'll do sloppy work, or just leave stuff undone...

The guy that built my swimming pool was a piece of work. He estimated six weeks to do the job. We talked it over and agreed that he would start in January after the holidays. So... on the week of Thanksgiving, he calls me up and wanted to start right then. I said no way. Not going to put a big hole in the back yard over the holiday. That pissed him off, but he did start the pool in late January... and finished it in April... with me correcting his mistakes and oversights every step of the way.

A few years ago, we worked with a painting contractor for the exterior of the house. We got half a dozen estimates. Some really low, some really high. They guy we went with was somewhere near the mid to high range, but we went with him because his estimate was very detailed. It listed every task and the cost. The guy and his crew were great. They worked fast and they did a great job without me having to police them. Hell, they even came under the estimate.

I'm okay with paying more for a good contractor. The peace of mind is worth it.

I never accept final payment untill the job is completed in full and the customer is completely satisfied . Within reason.

And I always tell my customers they are not only welcome but wanted to doublecheck my work. In fact I cont on it. Just in case. Because while I am very good. I am human and not perfect. the last perfect person died about 2,000 years ago.
So If I accidentally miss something and you see it. tell me about it so I can fix it.
And that includes after the job is completed and paid for.

The only thing is while I will try like hell. I cant always turn watermelon into gold. I can only work with whats there. If its not new construction. odds are it wont  look like new construction without newly reconstructing it.

You can get contractors who will do either shoddy work,will cut corners or simply just dont care.
Others are great.

You either just have bad luck with contractors. Or are unrealistic in what you want and expect.
Based on your pool and paint scenareo. I'd say the former is the case.

On the other hand.
I've also seen people complain about contractors. then myself go and do work for them only to find out that the problem wasnt with the contractors work. But in the way the homeowner wanted the contractor to do the work.
Or understood within a day because the homeowner was such a nit picky PIA exactly why the homeowner cant get contractors to come back.
I have a regular customer who is like that. she currently has an electrician, a plumber, a carpenter and a tile man refusing to do work for her because she is such a PIA. Often wanting the unrealistic.
For some reason her and I get along. But I also know what to expect with her.
That doesnt mean we dont go round and round with what she wants vrs what she can actually have. Like I said. I cant turn watermelon into gold at any price. I can just disguise it real good so it doesnt look as much like watermelon LOL

Then you have others who no matter what you do just arent going to be happy.
then my favorites are the ones that because they watched a couple of episodes of "This Old House" Or atteded a Home Depot Seminar. they think they know what they are talking about.

got news for ya's. im not real impressed with most of the folks on This Old house. and if the people at home Depot were so good....
They woudlnt be working at Home Depot.

[Sandman]

I'll bet that you're the of guy that takes pride in doing a good job.

Quite often I need ask just one question, "Would you leave it this way if it was your house?"

Far too often, the pool guy's answer was, "No."

[lasersailor184]

People think that the amount of bad contractors is only contained to the contractor profession.


A topic that OFTEN comes up in my studies is how Contractors are the least trusted profession.  Second and third are Used Car Sales Men and Lawyers.

Even past that, we are having trouble attracting qualified applicants.  While it is hard work, it makes for a decent career.  But with the pressure from the parents to recommend that EVERYONE should go to college, it would be career suicide for a High School Counselor to say, "College might not be right for you.  You can make a decent living being a [contractor, garbage man, State Department of Traffic]."

Because of this, the profession can only attract those who enjoy doing the work, regardless of pay, and those that are in it to screw other people, regardless of career.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by forHIM
Back to Dred's rant/gripe --

Customers are a pain, but don't you have a written process to proceed with a job?  IE customer has to sign a copy of the estimate that has the legal verbiage that cancellation with less than X days of notice is subject to cost of Y percentage of job?  Typically if the agreement to do the job is in person, they expect a down payment also.  

I'm leery of contractors who don't seem to follow good business practices regarding obtaining payment.  If I get a quote that doesn't require payment until the end, I'm suspicious of the quality and timeliness of the work.  I'd rather ensure that we have a binding agreement with the exchange of funds / paperwork so that if they agree in writing to X start date, it better by X start date and completion when they say there going to be done.

In this situation it was very short notice.
I didnt initially take a deposit because I couldnt guarantee that I was going ot be able to do it that soon.
And when I knew I could it was a matter of a phone call.
Even if I accepted a deposit on Friday. I't wouldnt have cleared till Monday at the earliest.

Same problem with if I had accepted one yesterday (Sunday)
Plus. Todays work was a one day job. Taking all that into consideration. I didnt see the point in getting a deposit on this job.

Even then. because of the short time span. Even if he had gien me a deposit. he was within the legal timeframe to demand a refund of that deposit. So it really didnt matter.

Todays estimate was for another smallish job. 2,3 days tops And was accepted on the spot but not to be done for another two weeks. Given the time span in this case. I did take a 10% deposit. Now. With another 20% due on the start date.
Inasmuch as it is a smallish job. I wont accept another payment beyond that 30%  until the job is complete.

On larger jobs. and/or if I get a feeling about someone I will demand a greater deposit up front. That amount varies depending on the feel I have for someone.

I'm usually pretty good at getting a feel for people. Every once in a a while Im wrong.
In this case all signs yesterday pointed to me doing the work.
More often then not. If someone has me do an esimate on one thing. Then calls back and asks for an estimate on other work as well.
I end up getting about 99% of those jobs.
In fact my last customer was one of those.
First gave an estimate on her bedroom. Then called me back to do an estimate on doing the doors throughout her house. Haanging and finishing one new door, and an assortment of other odds and ends.
And a one day job turned into a 7 day job.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... If you know so much about what is good or bad work and "cutting corners" then why don't you just do the job yourself?

lazs

That`s what I do. Most anything I need done building, painting , roofing, etc. I do myself. That way I know it is done right. Been there done that........BUT....some can, some can`t.