Best response to a overshoot/loop?

[kozhedub]

Situation -

Low level flight, you notice a contact in a powerful (engine/climb/zoom wise) aircraft pursuing - while not in a quite as powerful an aircraft yourself - let us just decide he is not an excellent pilot and you manage to have him shoot out in front at say medium overtake , of a 100/150m each second - he noses down until say 400m out and you manage not to get a shot and pulls up into a loop which because of the HP differential you really cannot follow beyond the immel portion.

Situation was Yak 9T and Spit XVI - I pulled up behind and near the top of that first loop I managed to destroy his aircraft with a 3.7cm hit to the tail but had I missed I feel as though the fight were lost and he would have immediately gained position on me - and this seems to happen often as well, the flat turn , vertical in this case. I often go for the shot given to me when they first go up but this doesn't seem to be, from a wider perspective, the best way to stay in it.

[SlapShot]

Each situation is different depending upon the parameters at the time of the engagement.

You obviously thought that you had enough smash to follow up after the overshoot. So you assessed the situation at hand and went for it and it payed off.

Had the situation been where you did not have the smash to follow up, I would have poured on power flying straight with a little nose down to gain speed while he was going vert and over the top.

If I did it right, I would have gained some separation and needed speed to be able to hopefully evade his next pass and then re-assess the situation again.

Whenever my opponent has alt and/or speed on me, I always try to gain separation after evading, and try my best to keep get some speed back in order to give me the best chances for the next evasion. It is very hard to "evade" when your plane is slow and sloppy.

For me, evasion is turning into your opponent (D1.5-D2.0) before his next pass. That's why I go for separation and try to gain speed. Now, turning into my opponent does not mean I am setting up for an HO. Turning into him presents a smaller target for him and any move that I may pull to evade, is a lot more drastic for him to counter, as opposed to try to evade while he is on my 6.

Trying to evade while he is in the 6 position is only asking for death by deflection shot. Evading while he is at your 12, makes it much harder for him, and gives you many more options to evade and optimally switch roles.

[Murdr]

Going for a shot from about 30 degrees or more outside of your opponents extended 6 is going to result in a flight path overshoot.  

A flight path overshoot does not nessacerly mean that a wingline overshoot will also happen.  It all depends on the angle of flight path difference when the overshoot happens, but an experienced pilot will convert a flight path overshoot into a wingline overshoot by swinging their wingline into you.

The answer to your question in general is managing your pursuit modes.  You can read more about that here.

Rather that constantly trying for all its worth to pull nose on your opponent, you can use lag pursuit to stay in their extended 6 position.  That will give you the option to make a judgement call every time you are thinking about pulling a lead for a shot.  The two questions are "Will this give me a good shot?" and "Will I overshoot if the shot does not end the fight?".  If the shot opportunity is in doubt, or you feel it risks a sevear overshoot you cannot recover from, you can opt to just use lag pursuit to stay in their extended 6 and look for the next opportunity.

I wish my AH machine was running right now because I would snip a film deomonstration.  But film Im thinking of is in this barrel roll defense film package.  In the one film, I am following cluso at 1100 yards, and he reverses to me.  Rather than pulling into a potential head on and subsequent merge, I lagged my turn and stayed in his extended 6.  That package is to demonstrate how to create a flight path overshoot and convert it into a wingline overshoot, so it may be helpful in that respect also.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by kozhedub
Situation -

Low level flight, you notice a contact in a powerful (engine/climb/zoom wise) aircraft pursuing - while not in a quite as powerful an aircraft yourself - let us just decide he is not an excellent pilot and you manage to have him shoot out in front at say medium overtake , of a 100/150m each second - he noses down until say 400m out and you manage not to get a shot and pulls up into a loop which because of the HP differential you really cannot follow beyond the immel portion.

Situation was Yak 9T and Spit XVI - I pulled up behind and near the top of that first loop I managed to destroy his aircraft with a 3.7cm hit to the tail but had I missed I feel as though the fight were lost and he would have immediately gained position on me - and this seems to happen often as well, the flat turn , vertical in this case. I often go for the shot given to me when they first go up but this doesn't seem to be, from a wider perspective, the best way to stay in it.

as slapshot said....every engagement is different, but what seems to work for me(it's all i know really) is as the con comes within 2k, i'll start a slow turn......gradually pulling it tighter and reducing throttle as i do, wathing the con....if he looks like he's trying to still gain a shot on me, i fed top rudder, then opposite airlron to wha ti have in..this causes me to enter a barrel roll, only it's started from 90 degrees to the ground rather than level. i'm spending most of my tiem watching him as i do this.......usually, he'll blow right on by me......when he does, i watch to see where he goes/what he does....and THIS determines if i complete the roll, or exit it to follow or climb or dive.....about 1/2 the time, i get a few rounds into the con, and just over 1/2 of them usually make some sort of mistake when they hear rounds hitting them, allowing me to catch em...then it gets to be fun........

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Had the situation been where you did not have the smash to follow up, I would have poured on power flying straight with a little nose down to gain speed while he was going vert and over the top.

If I did it right, I would have gained some separation and needed speed to be able to hopefully evade his next pass and then re-assess the situation again.

Precisely what I was going to type.  What a time saver you are

[sax]

So my question is why Slappy isn't an official trainer yet .

[SgtPappy]

While we're on the topic...
Murdr, I was watching tat film again... your 38J vs. Yuki's Hayate. At about 1:19, I see that you're beginning a setup to a lag pursuit. What if Yuji decided to attempt a high yo-yo to burn off the energy and attempt to get on your six?

[Murdr]

Just got my system that runs AH up and running again.

Here is the film clip I refered to earlier regarding lag pursuit. film
In that clip, rather than flying to the bogie, I am flying to his extended 6 (also known as flying to the elbow).

At the start of the clip I am in pure pursuit with the opponent 1000 out.  At 00:24 he initiates a turn.  I bank my lift vector, but I don't initiate a turn.  00:27-00:28 I allow him to leave my wind screen, now I am in lag pursuit.  Not until 00:35 to I really initiate any maneuvers over 2Gs.  Prior to that the maneuvering I did do was to get the separation needed to set a turn that would drop back into his extended 6.  I continue to intentionally ease off my potential best turn radius until gaining the angle/separation where I could follow in trail of his flight path at about 00:45.  Then I am in position to be in pure or lead pursuit.  

Staying in pure, or moving to lead in that situation would have resulted in something like this:


You end up with flight paths converging at angles that cause you to lose the trail position.

In this example the opponent started his turn nearly 1000 yards out.  That means his turn radius point is also well ahead of me.  Were I to react to his turn by trying to stay nose on, my radius point would end up several hundred yards offset from theirs.  That results in a flight path overshoot in the 2nd 90 degrees of the turn.

By using lag pursuit, what you are doing is bring your radius point closer to theirs before you start your turn.  The result is you can closely match their flight path and stay in trail.  Like this...


So lag, lead, and pure pursuit modes are all refering to where you place the enemy in relation to your nose when you have them in your front quarter.  

Hopefully I did not confuse that issue earlier by posting 4 films in one thread, where the lag pursuit comments were about just one of the films.

Originally posted by SgtPappy
While we're on the topic...
Murdr, I was watching tat film again... your 38J vs. Yuki's Hayate. At about 1:19, I see that you're beginning a setup to a lag pursuit. What if Yuji decided to attempt a high yo-yo to burn off the energy and attempt to get on your six?

Re: 38jvki84.ahf

At 1:19 what I was doing was performing a lead turn to try to cause a flight path overshoot as I just illustrated above.  I was trying the same at about 0:12 in the film.  In that case, by 00:19 he made it clear he was not going to follow, but instead yo-yo for separation and re-engage.  There are 2 questions at that point.  Do I have the E to follow him up?  No.  Can I at least get in guns range? Think so.  If both are no, I would abandon the turn and nose down and reset the pursuit.  I opted to follow for guns.  Sometimes even if you don't have the E to stay with an opponent, you can still "scare" them into turning enough that you can hang with them.  (here is a film example of that by the way).  

Anyways in that first attempt he broke off nose high, so I immediately started to turn into him.  As you said, usually what they are trying to do is separate and yo-yo back into trail.  By turning into him, I am minimizing that separation needed to compete a turn to come nose on to me.  He countered by continuing to go up, and eventually I had to unload and extend because I did not have the E to stay with him.  That's one possible answer to your "what if".

The 00:56 2nd attempt, I did the same, he thought about following, but then nosed up at 800 yards out.  In that case, the angles and position wouldn't allow me to turn into him.  So that time I tried to extend and gain speed.  There is another possible answer

Since we are discussing that film.  Let me make some illustrations from that related to my previous comments...

[mtnman]

Here's what I do to take away a higher plane's E advantage-

The numbers I'll give are not "actual" top speeds, just rounded for easy math...

Let's say your plane is capable of a 10k level top speed of 300mph.  Lets start at that speed and alt.  

If you roll inverted, and pull into a dive for say 2000ft (450mph?), roll back level and then pull out of that dive and go back up without pulling hard G's, you'll end up at nearly your beginning alt and beginning speed, for a very low net E loss.

If, however, you dive down to 8k (speed picks up to say 450mph) and then level out, your speed will eventually drop back down to 300mph (more or less).  You will now be at 8k and 300mph, for a significantly higher net E loss.  See the difference?  

If you can position yourself directly above (more or less) your opponent, and dive nearly vertically on your opponent, being careful to avoid going below him, and avoiding sharply pulling up (NO BLACK-OUTS!), you can make repeated passes without killing your E advantage (IF YOU STAY ABOVE HIM).  You'll lose some, but he will lose at least as much by pulling hard to dodge your shot.  The high plane will keep an E advantage in this instance.  If the attacker drops below his opponent he'll need to waste some E getting back up to an alt equal with his victim before he can climb back up above him again.  That will cause him to lose his advantage quicker.  If the attacker lets the defender get off to one side (horizontal separation), he'll have to dive down and chase him, losing E in the process.

So- as the low guy, you want to avoid letting him do this (preserve his E advantage).  You don't want him above you, and you don't want him to make you burn lots of E dodging his shots.  As the attacker, he'll do best by staying above you (MINIMIZING HORIZONTAL separation.  As the defender, you want to do the opposite- MAXIMIZE HORIZONTAL separation.

So- here's how I do that.

1-Think ahead, and think aggressively.  Don't just try to dodge and stay alive, try to avoid getting shot while you increase your E, or at least preserve it.  At the same time, take away his E advantage.  Consider him as your next kill- just patiently set him up to die.

2-Preserve your E!  To do that you need to dodge his shot without killing your E!  So, if he's going to drop onto your six for a shot, DON'T wait until the last instant to start dodging.  If you wait until the last second, you'll need to dodge hard, burning E, and he'll just go back up for another try(staying above you, with little horizontal separation).  That'll get you killed.  Start reversing earlier, I like him 2.5 to 3k back when I start reversing.  I turn back fairly gently, avoiding any sign of blackouts, and make my turn slightly nose down to preserve speed.  Level back out heading back towards the high attacker, but not quite nose-nose.  Try to "merge" going a bit nose up.  This will do a couple things.  One, you'll recover the alt you lost in your initial turn. Two, you'll almost always get him to merge nose-down with you, which puts him in a position of wasting E to get back up to your alt( he'll usually dive past you, lower than you).  He'll be fast in his dive too, and will probably waste E by pulling back up too hard.

3-After your merge, level back out and just keep flying away (maximize horizontal separation, and make him chase you down for another pass).  He's now behind you, pulling through a 180 degree turn.  Immelmann if he has a clue, flat turning if he doesn't.  He'll waste more E then you either way, considering you're just flying straight.

I make my merges with the goal to make him turn 180 degrees, NOT to get position for a shot.  If he goes past me and climbs "north", I want to extend "south".  I want to get as much horizontal separation between us as possible, so he'll waste E by chasing me.  If this goes on long enough he'll be behind me, but without any significant E advantage.  After a few of these turns, he'll probably lose patience and start pulling very hard in his turns.  This just helps me out...

4- Keep your speed reasonable!  Don't get to slow, OR too fast!  In my F4U, I stay about 275-300mph.  If I have more speed, I climb very shallow (putting E in the bank.)  I level out as soon as he's pointing back at me, and NEVER get too slow while I'm climbing.  If you're too fast, you'll have to pull into the blackouts to dodge him, and will turn a wider radius while scrubbing more E in the process.  Keep your speed at a reasonable level at least until you've approximately equalized your E states (his and yours).

Net result so far-  You reversed carefully, at your leisure almost losing very little E in the process, and very likely able to climb a tad (building E, or at least maintaining it).  He dove in, pulled up fairly hard, and in all likelihood scrubbed a chunk of his E.  He's now behind you again, slow at the top of his immelmann, and you're accelerating away.  Guess what?  He now needs to dive down a bit to catch you.  Remember about the E loss associated with that?

5- He'll catch you again, so repeat the process.  Maybe again after that.  Each time he does it he'll lose some of his advantage, and you may even be able to build some E in the process.  I often start out at say,  2000ft, and find after 2-3 dodges I'm up to 3000ft, which is often about co-alt with the guy that started above me.  You may also be able to get behind him on one of your merges and latch onto him.  Just watch your E and don't get too aggressive too soon if he still has you at a significant advantage.  Watch out for "ropes" etc.  You may be able to get behind him with a bit of an E disadvantage and "scare" him into turning by shooting at him, etc.  That may finish the fight.  If not, continue as described...

6- At this point, your probably about co-alt with him, at a comfortable speed.  Just merge and kill him (whole different topic at this point).  He may realize whats happened, and leave if he's in a faster plane.  That's OK, you beat him...

Now, if you spot him close behind you at first, you'll need to try a different beginning move.  I like the "barrel roll defense" type move to get him to overshoot.  I may try for a kill shot as he goes by, but if that fails I'll use the same strategy outlined above.  It'll be hairy at first because I've let him minimize the horizontal separation already.  If you can dodge twice though, watch him real close on his third attempt.  Often as soon as you break right, he'll go up into a yo-yo.  That's my signal to nose down a tad and get some speed and separation (I'll skip the barrel roll if he does this).  I'll adjust my direction of extension here to maximize the turn he needs to make to chase me.  I'm now back to the original scenario...

Read this in reverse to improve your ability to pressure lower opponents.  DON'T let them get horizontal separation.  If you do, you'll end up in an equal E tail chase.  If your opponent can take away your E advantage, he can probably do the same thing with your angles advantage...

MtnMan

[uberslet]

i would just go and follow him up unless i was positive i didnt have the E

[kozhedub]

Thanks for the thorough respones - will read them once more and try things out in the arena.

I think the point about not waiting too long may be key...I usually wait until someone is at d1.0 before I initiate any counters ta all.....

[CAP1]

Originally posted by mtnman
Here's what I do to take away a higher plane's E advantage-

The numbers I'll give are not "actual" top speeds, just rounded for easy math...

Let's say your plane is capable of a 10k level top speed of 300mph.  Lets start at that speed and alt.  

If you roll inverted, and pull into a dive for say 2000ft (450mph?), roll back level and then pull out of that dive and go back up without pulling hard G's, you'll end up at nearly your beginning alt and beginning speed, for a very low net E loss.

If, however, you dive down to 8k (speed picks up to say 450mph) and then level out, your speed will eventually drop back down to 300mph (more or less).  You will now be at 8k and 300mph, for a significantly higher net E loss.  See the difference?  

If you can position yourself directly above (more or less) your opponent, and dive nearly vertically on your opponent, being careful to avoid going below him, and avoiding sharply pulling up (NO BLACK-OUTS!), you can make repeated passes without killing your E advantage (IF YOU STAY ABOVE HIM).  You'll lose some, but he will lose at least as much by pulling hard to dodge your shot.  The high plane will keep an E advantage in this instance.  If the attacker drops below his opponent he'll need to waste some E getting back up to an alt equal with his victim before he can climb back up above him again.  That will cause him to lose his advantage quicker.  If the attacker lets the defender get off to one side (horizontal separation), he'll have to dive down and chase him, losing E in the process.

So- as the low guy, you want to avoid letting him do this (preserve his E advantage).  You don't want him above you, and you don't want him to make you burn lots of E dodging his shots.  As the attacker, he'll do best by staying above you (MINIMIZING HORIZONTAL separation.  As the defender, you want to do the opposite- MAXIMIZE HORIZONTAL separation.

So- here's how I do that.

1-Think ahead, and think aggressively.  Don't just try to dodge and stay alive, try to avoid getting shot while you increase your E, or at least preserve it.  At the same time, take away his E advantage.  Consider him as your next kill- just patiently set him up to die.

2-Preserve your E!  To do that you need to dodge his shot without killing your E!  So, if he's going to drop onto your six for a shot, DON'T wait until the last instant to start dodging.  If you wait until the last second, you'll need to dodge hard, burning E, and he'll just go back up for another try(staying above you, with little horizontal separation).  That'll get you killed.  Start reversing earlier, I like him 2.5 to 3k back when I start reversing.  I turn back fairly gently, avoiding any sign of blackouts, and make my turn slightly nose down to preserve speed.  Level back out heading back towards the high attacker, but not quite nose-nose.  Try to "merge" going a bit nose up.  This will do a couple things.  One, you'll recover the alt you lost in your initial turn. Two, you'll almost always get him to merge nose-down with you, which puts him in a position of wasting E to get back up to your alt( he'll usually dive past you, lower than you).  He'll be fast in his dive too, and will probably waste E by pulling back up too hard.

3-After your merge, level back out and just keep flying away (maximize horizontal separation, and make him chase you down for another pass).  He's now behind you, pulling through a 180 degree turn.  Immelmann if he has a clue, flat turning if he doesn't.  He'll waste more E then you either way, considering you're just flying straight.

I make my merges with the goal to make him turn 180 degrees, NOT to get position for a shot.  If he goes past me and climbs "north", I want to extend "south".  I want to get as much horizontal separation between us as possible, so he'll waste E by chasing me.  If this goes on long enough he'll be behind me, but without any significant E advantage.  After a few of these turns, he'll probably lose patience and start pulling very hard in his turns.  This just helps me out...

4- Keep your speed reasonable!  Don't get to slow, OR too fast!  In my F4U, I stay about 275-300mph.  If I have more speed, I climb very shallow (putting E in the bank.)  I level out as soon as he's pointing back at me, and NEVER get too slow while I'm climbing.  If you're too fast, you'll have to pull into the blackouts to dodge him, and will turn a wider radius while scrubbing more E in the process.  Keep your speed at a reasonable level at least until you've approximately equalized your E states (his and yours).

Net result so far-  You reversed carefully, at your leisure almost losing very little E in the process, and very likely able to climb a tad (building E, or at least maintaining it).  He dove in, pulled up fairly hard, and in all likelihood scrubbed a chunk of his E.  He's now behind you again, slow at the top of his immelmann, and you're accelerating away.  Guess what?  He now needs to dive down a bit to catch you.  Remember about the E loss associated with that?

5- He'll catch you again, so repeat the process.  Maybe again after that.  Each time he does it he'll lose some of his advantage, and you may even be able to build some E in the process.  I often start out at say,  2000ft, and find after 2-3 dodges I'm up to 3000ft, which is often about co-alt with the guy that started above me.  You may also be able to get behind him on one of your merges and latch onto him.  Just watch your E and don't get too aggressive too soon if he still has you at a significant advantage.  Watch out for "ropes" etc.  You may be able to get behind him with a bit of an E disadvantage and "scare" him into turning by shooting at him, etc.  That may finish the fight.  If not, continue as described...

6- At this point, your probably about co-alt with him, at a comfortable speed.  Just merge and kill him (whole different topic at this point).  He may realize whats happened, and leave if he's in a faster plane.  That's OK, you beat him...

Now, if you spot him close behind you at first, you'll need to try a different beginning move.  I like the "barrel roll defense" type move to get him to overshoot.  I may try for a kill shot as he goes by, but if that fails I'll use the same strategy outlined above.  It'll be hairy at first because I've let him minimize the horizontal separation already.  If you can dodge twice though, watch him real close on his third attempt.  Often as soon as you break right, he'll go up into a yo-yo.  That's my signal to nose down a tad and get some speed and separation (I'll skip the barrel roll if he does this).  I'll adjust my direction of extension here to maximize the turn he needs to make to chase me.  I'm now back to the original scenario...

Read this in reverse to improve your ability to pressure lower opponents.  DON'T let them get horizontal separation.  If you do, you'll end up in an equal E tail chase.  If your opponent can take away your E advantage, he can probably do the same thing with your angles advantage...

MtnMan

ya know.........when you and murdr join in a thread like this......the knowledge is great to read......you both post excellent replies....very detailed........and informative...thanks both of you!!  but mtnman...murdr has ya with the pictures!:aok

[mtnman]

Originally posted by CAP1
...but mtnman...murdr has ya with the pictures!:aok

LOL, I know!!

I see he posted his while I was still writing mine.  He has a gift being able to describe it in a much more technical mannor.  Most of my flying/fighting is intuitive, I just do what "feels" right.  Murdr can explain WHY it works much better than I can.  (I hope to improve though, hehe).  I think if I learned to look at things the way he does I'd improve faster myself.

Honestly, I'm not all that PC literate.  I know enough to make my computer do what I need it to, but that's it.  If I want something else out of it I have to learn each new thing.  I can't even type, I'm just a real fast donut, hehe.

I just figured out how to do some diagrams on Paint.  I drew 'em up nice and all, and then posted them on a fileshare space so I could post them here (in a gunnery thread).  The fileshare wouldn't show them as pictures though, because they are Bitmaps.  So I gave up, hehe.

I'm also on 28K dial-up.  Do you have any idea how long it takes to post pictures at that speed?

Funny thing about the pictures- I have a degree in art (wildlife).  I learned to draw on paper, and haven't ever bothered to figure out how to do it on the PC, lol.

MtnMan

[Murdr]

I wouldn't say "gift", more like "practiced"  I was, and often still am, an instinct flyer.  Took quite a bit of effort years ago to figure out what the heck I was doing right, and why it worked, when first joining the trainers back in Air Warrior