109g-10

[Krusty]

Originally posted by gatt
Krusty mate, you make me think you have never ever hunted buffs at 25K+ with the old G-10. You'd never say that a gondolas armed G-10 is similar to a light G-14. Its a sin.

No, that's not what I meant.

I meant that IF you're hunting anything at 25k, you're not going to do it with gondolas, period. Not even if they were on the K-4. It would be like taking 100% internal fuel in a P-47N and full drop tanks up to 30k just to do a fighter sweep.

I'm saying that IF you go that high, you're going to go clean. IF you go clean, the 30mm is by far the better choice, and the K4 already gives you that.

IF you want gondolas, you will not be going much above 15k in most cases. IF you want gondolas, almost every time you take them will be below 16k, in which case there's 5mph difference between G10 and G14.

It self-balances, if you get my point. Above a certain alt, it doesn't matter what version you're flying, you don't want 'em. Below that alt, you have 'em. So it works out by itself.

[Kweassa]

I meant that IF you're hunting anything at 25k, you're not going to do it with gondolas, period.

 Just what is it with you and your "periods"? Is it some monthly biological urge to contradict people just to show how annoying you can be?

 Do you feel some need to redefine the reality to a clandestine abstraction of your own imagination so it fits your own bogus views that clearly contradicts how people actually play the game?

 How about a poll?

 There are some fine Luftwaffe AC veterans in these boards. Let's ask them how often they've used gondolas in the G-10 to hunt down buffs at over 25k. If they say they've all did it, are you going to redefine it again so for some reason their real life experiences and tendencies in flying 109s become pointless, and all that matters is your own interpretation of reality on how 109s aren't going to hit buffs with gondolas over 25k?

Not even if they were on the K-4. It would be like taking 100% internal fuel in a P-47N and full drop tanks up to 30k just to do a fighter sweep. I'm saying that IF you go that high, you're going to go clean.

 Er... let's see.

 Hmm...

 Nope.

 How many different versions of "no, I don't fly the way you think people fly, nor the experienced LW aces of AH" do you want to hear?

IF you go clean, the 30mm is by far the better choice, and the K4 already gives you that.

 No.

 Ever heard the word, "preference"?

IF you want gondolas, you will not be going much above 15k in most cases. IF you want gondolas, almost every time you take them will be below 16k, in which case there's 5mph difference between G10 and G14.

 No, I've used them at altitudes according to the situation that warrants it. Who are you to dictate what I am going to do, or not do?

It self-balances, if you get my point. Above a certain alt, it doesn't matter what version you're flying, you don't want 'em.

 Didn't the people above already tell you that they want them?

 Hello, Earth to Krusty, we have a message for you:


" People loved the gondelwaffens in G-10s, they loved to use it against buffs, and they loved flying high. "[/b][/i]

Below that alt, you have 'em. So it works out by itself.

 No, it doesn't.

[Krusty]

Hrm... you see, insulting TROLLS like this are why I keep leaving the forums... I keep saying "Nah, they're not that bad, give them another try" and then see this crap every time.

Insults, face slapping, chest thumping.

And usually from the same selection/pool of folks every time.



Kweassa, I KNOW you can be civil. I've seen you do it before. I'm puzzled why you choose not to be.

FYI: 190a8s CAN carry WGr 21 rockets. They CAN take them up to 25k. They won't ever in practical use because of the performance loss. BELOW this altitude, they have 'em. The same is true of the 109s and gondolas. You may argue folks want 'em, but prove it. I've never seen anybody with any gondolas in any 109 variant that was above 20k in almost the entire time I've been playing this game (since early-mid 2000). The ONLY exception is AFKers on auto climb that you pull up behind and kill without effort.

Your argumentative post throws more BS on the issue than you accuse me of flinging.

And no, a poll won't count, because of the 5-10 thousand subscribers that might actually USE any given 109, only a small fraction actually read the forum that might reply. For example, I don't do polls even if I have an opinion.



So, about being civil? Can we try it?


EDIT: P.S. Way to edit your post and make it MORE insulting than it originally was, after I replied. Class act...

[moot]

Krusty, G10 with gondolas and 30mm hub was the first high altitude intercept choice I'd make, pretty much everytime.  This is back in 2000 or so.
I remember loving the fact the thing WEP'd like nothing else, right up to 30k (or something huge like that).

[OntosMk1]

I've never seen anybody with any gondolas in any 109 variant that was above 20k in almost the entire time I've been playing this game (since early-mid 2000). The ONLY exception is AFKers on auto climb that you pull up behind and kill without effort.

Krusty I've taken a G14 up to 20k+ many many times to intercept Buffs. Ive done it in the AvA, SEA, and MA. I'll agree that once you top 22k the performance just drops out and its a struggle to gain any sort of "advantage". But to say it doesnt happen is stretching it a bit. On the G14 I almost never take the 30mm package unless im attacking GVs. I will agree with you that the G10 really isnt needed simply because we have the G14. Also if I remember right, and i probably dont, wasnt the G10 produced as a stop gap for the K4. Also wasnt the G10 mostly operational with the Romainian or Hungarian Air Forces do to the fact that they were the only ones able to produce that model with any great effect? I may be getting the Historical notes on the G10 and G14 mixed up. In short i dont see any point in having the G10 back. We have the G14. It handles just as well or better than the G10 did and I started out flying the G10 when i began playing AH.

[Bronk]

It's hyperbole. It's obviously hyperbole.

[Major Biggles]

hate to say it krusty, but kweassa's right about the gondies, people used them, they used them a lot, and they used them high...


i would always take gondies if going after buffs. the g10 was an excellent buff hunter

[wrag]

Originally posted by Krusty
No, that's not what I meant.

I meant that IF you're hunting anything at 25k, you're not going to do it with gondolas, period. Not even if they were on the K-4. It would be like taking 100% internal fuel in a P-47N and full drop tanks up to 30k just to do a fighter sweep.

I'm saying that IF you go that high, you're going to go clean. IF you go clean, the 30mm is by far the better choice, and the K4 already gives you that.

IF you want gondolas, you will not be going much above 15k in most cases. IF you want gondolas, almost every time you take them will be below 16k, in which case there's 5mph difference between G10 and G14.

It self-balances, if you get my point. Above a certain alt, it doesn't matter what version you're flying, you don't want 'em. Below that alt, you have 'em. So it works out by itself.

OH REALLY???

I fought many times ABOVE 20k with the 20mm hub and GONDS in the old G10!

(A little NOTE to you Krusty ...... wrag flew the G10 with gonds nearly ALL the time in AH, and did so most often ABOVE 20K, even got teased by his squadies about it.   So your argument has IMHO some VERY BIG HOLES IN IT!)




There are some people that remember some of those fights.  IMHO we had a good times and good fights.

Shot down a few buffs up there as well!

Take a G14 up there and EVERYTHING changes!

This discussion is NOT about g14 low level Krusty.  I agree I would NOT take a G14 much above 16K with GONDS.  Not sure I would take a G14 much above 16 or 17K without gonds!  That thing is a DOG up there! BUT I would take a G10 or K4 with gonds up above 20K if the FM was correct!

So IMHO NO they DON'T self-balance NOT even CLOSE!

And the G14 performance starts to fall off above 16K IMHO!

I remember the G10 and it flew very much like the K4 we have now.

EVERYTHING I've read says the G10 will OUT PREFORM the G14 above 16K.

That is what this discussion is about!

Further more it's in reference to both the MA and CT.

That and the FACT that the 30mm is a CLOSE in weapon when compared to the 20mm equipped aircraft.

It's about a GAP that IMHO needs to be filled.

AND can you get the G14 to travel at 400 mph at 16.5K WITHOUT diving 1st?  By just climbing to alt and going level?

If so HOW LONG does it take you?

Please record your flight from take off to reaching 400 mph at 16.5K I would really like to see it, and how long it takes.

Cause I've tried it with just the 20mm hub and 30mm hub NO DT at 16.5K and thus far I can't get it to do better then 380 with wep.  (perhaps I don't wait long enough?)  I've tried it online and offline with 50% fuel etc.

As to your argument about AUX vs AFT on the 190a8 and f8 SORRY I disagree!  I tried burning off the aux 1st, AFTER you made your claim, and the 190a8 or f8 will flip a wing on you!  I then went BACK to burning off the AFT 1st and SURPRISE!!! the 190 was much LESS apt to flip that wing!  It behaved itself MUCH better!  So while your argument may SEEM valid to you, when I fly a 190a8 or f8, and I'm pretty sure others will agree, the 190a8 and f8 SEEM to disagree with your assessment!!!!

[wrag]

Originally posted by Krusty
Hrm... you see, insulting TROLLS like this are why I keep leaving the forums... I keep saying "Nah, they're not that bad, give them another try" and then see this crap every time.

Insults, face slapping, chest thumping.

And usually from the same selection/pool of folks every time.



Kweassa, I KNOW you can be civil. I've seen you do it before. I'm puzzled why you choose not to be.

FYI: 190a8s CAN carry WGr 21 rockets. They CAN take them up to 25k. They won't ever in practical use because of the performance loss. BELOW this altitude, they have 'em. The same is true of the 109s and gondolas. You may argue folks want 'em, but prove it. I've never seen anybody with any gondolas in any 109 variant that was above 20k in almost the entire time I've been playing this game (since early-mid 2000). The ONLY exception is AFKers on auto climb that you pull up behind and kill without effort.

Your argumentative post throws more BS on the issue than you accuse me of flinging.

And no, a poll won't count, because of the 5-10 thousand subscribers that might actually USE any given 109, only a small fraction actually read the forum that might reply. For example, I don't do polls even if I have an opinion.



So, about being civil? Can we try it?


EDIT: P.S. Way to edit your post and make it MORE insulting than it originally was, after I replied. Class act...

Krusty what is it exactly that makes you think you are an authority on LW iron?

Several people including myself have INFORMED you that we did not and do not fly LW iron the way you claim we did or should!

Please look CLOSELY at my post just above this one!

You will hopefully NOTE that my favorite plane in AH until it was removed was the G10.  

I flew it almost exclusively in AH!

Ask my squadies!

AND I flew it most OFTEN with the 20mm hub AND GONDS!

AND I flew it most often at 20K or HIGHER!

I even developed little tricks for diving in it so I wouldn't compress.

I fought with people from 30K all the way to the deck in the 109G10 with gonds.

Ask around!

Look at some of the old tours when we still had the G10.

You're quite welcome to check my old scores if you like, same name I have now!

[moot]

He's right about the AFT/AUX thing, though.

[wrag]

Originally posted by moot
He's right about the AFT/AUX thing, though.

Who?

[Xasthur]

I want the G-10 too, Wrag, but it seems that you're missing a critical point here.

By all accounts the old G-10 flew as a K4 performance wise. If the G-10 was to be re-added it would not be as you remembered it.

The G-10 will be slower.... then if you add the gondolas you'll add a further speed penalty... It will still be better than the G-14 at altitude but it will not behave like a K4.

Also, on un-related note... 109s don't compress. They won't go into an un-recoverable dive like a P-38 will (until you reach ridiculous speeds that is... and any other aircraft will do the same thing). The air disturbance over the control surfaces doesn't happen like it does in the P-38, which is compressibility as I understand it.

The unresponsiveness of the elevators at high speeds in the 109 is not a compression issue, the elevators just become very heavy thus negating regular control inputs.

Manually controlling the elevator trim will counter this and allow the 109 to turn at high speeds with almost anything. As a matter of fact, manual control of the elevators completely removes the issue of heavy elevators and introduces the trouble of blacking-out.

An over-trimmed 109 in a high-speed dive that has otherwise rendered joystick input useless will have you pulling heavy G's and on the verge of black-out for an extended period.

Recently I put a 109K into a very high-speed dive chasing something down, I took the shot and went to pull out.... no response from joystick inputs. After combat trim was disabled I trimmed out the elevators too much and blacked out (I'm still getting used to the trim wheel on my X52). After what was probably the longest G-induced black-out I've had in-game I 'came-too' with the 109 in a tight vertical loop. I had pulled out just above the deck at what was at least 400MPH+ IIRC and completed a full loop at ground level, when the black-out wore off I was already half-way through what had to be at least the second loop.


Trim is everything at high speeds in the 109. Don't sell yourself short by thinking they will compress.

[moot]

Weren't you saying Krusty was wrong about the best burn order being AUX,AFT,FWD in 190s?

[wrag]

Originally posted by moot
Weren't you saying Krusty was wrong about the best burn order being AUX,AFT,FWD in 190s?

Yes I was.

I tried it both ways and found the 190a8 and f8 preform BETTER if you burn off the AFT tank 1st.

Burn off the AUX 1st and the a8 and f8 have tendency to flip a wing on you in a hard turn or maneuver.

But don't take my word for it ask WideWing his opinion.

And while you're at it fly the a8 or f8 and one time burn off the AUX and try hard maneuvers and the next burn off the AFT tank and try the same maneuvers.

See what you think.

IMHO the  planes themselves disagree with Krusty's argument.

[Kweassa]

Hrm... you see, insulting TROLLS like this are why I keep leaving the forums... I keep saying "Nah, they're not that bad, give them another try" and then see this crap every time.

Insults, face slapping, chest thumping.

And usually from the same selection/pool of folks every time.

 Funny.

 It is our impression you leave the forums everytime you've been proven wrong. Wait a week until the thread dies out, and then come back pretending nothing happened, and start making authorative and patronizing posts again about how everybody else is wrong.

 

Kweassa, I KNOW you can be civil. I've seen you do it before. I'm puzzled why you choose not to be.

 It's because I've just about had enough of you dressing up irresponsible and unvalidated claims in one of your weird, perverted aphorisms - period this, period that... as if its some kind of common sense amongst all people. However, most often you are the only one making such claims against every other people who've come up with a variety of evidence to prove you wrong.

 It's also because I'm the local forum cynic and prettythang, and I can detect bullshi* outside of a 50 mile radius. Because throwing around cynical bullshi* is my specialty, I immediately recognize someone else's pile of crap.
 

FYI: 190a8s CAN carry WGr 21 rockets. They CAN take them up to 25k. They won't ever in practical use because of the performance loss. BELOW this altitude, they have 'em. The same is true of the 109s and gondolas. You may argue folks want 'em, but prove it. I've never seen anybody with any gondolas in any 109 variant that was above 20k in almost the entire time I've been playing this game (since early-mid 2000).

 There's your proof right up there, few posts up. See some of those LW experts above? Besides, I myself, am a living proof - I used to fly with gondies regularly above 25k to hunt buffs.

 Do you need more?

 It's really amusing to see you make these grandioso and exaggerated expressions such as "I've never seen blahblah... the entire time I've been playing...", because the existence of "proof", like wrag and others, just proved in turn how your own experience may be seriously lacking and incorrect.

 So I suggest you try refraining from using conclusive expressions, especially when you don't really have anything to back it up. Otherwise you might have to "disappear" from the boards again.
 

The ONLY exception is AFKers on auto climb that you pull up behind and kill without effort.

 There you go using that weird conclusive tone again. Want to ask these people who've already proved you wrong?

 

Your argumentative post throws more BS on the issue than you accuse me of flinging.

 "Argumentative", out of your mouth.

 Hold on while I take a screenshot of this post.

And no, a poll won't count, because of the 5-10 thousand subscribers that might actually USE any given 109, only a small fraction actually read the forum that might reply. For example, I don't do polls even if I have an opinion.

 Ah yes.. it doesn't count. ROFL

 Why am I not surprised?

So, about being civil? Can we try it?

 Not unless you realize that your opinions on the matter are hardly substantiated by any amount of fact, and stop quoting them as truths.

 Until that happens, my cynical mouth will treat you as you deserve.

EDIT: P.S. Way to edit your post and make it MORE insulting than it originally was, after I replied. Class act...

 Why thank you. I was kinda hoping it had that effect.