Author Topic: Nothing to see here, move along  (Read 5334 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2008, 08:28:46 AM »
saxman.. "safeguards"?   you mean protectionism right?  Like the unions had coal tenders on trains for many years after diesel came in and the first cars had sockets for the buggy whips?

lazs

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12768
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2008, 08:50:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Mmmmm .... you figure how?


He's Robin Hood. Only the rich he's promising to steal from will actually be the working class.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12768
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2008, 08:53:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Whats sad? Are you saying his campaign buget is taxpayer money?  If so, how so?


He's promising to redistribute the wealth in our country. Campaign contributions will be repaid with tax dollars probably 1,000 fold.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2008, 09:11:28 AM »
Quote
The one overtly positive thing I can say for Obama... He's not the Washington Insider, the status quo.


I keep hearing this, but there is overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.

1. He is definitely an insider of the Illinois Democratic machine, one of the most draconian and established political machines remaining in America. He is known to have Washington insider Dick Durbin as his mentor. His votes have largely paralleled Durbin's and have supported Illinois pork barrel issues -- at least the ones he didn't simply vote "present" on to reduce his exposure to having a more solid record during his term as senator/candidate. It's a point of fact, that you do not get the support of the Illinois Democratic machine by being an "outsider" or "a force for change." Really, a laughable idea.

2. As above, you do not get the support of the national Democratic Party by being an outsider, anymore than you do with the Republicans. Some Democrats are more liberal than others, some have an assortment of different favored positions. But, Obama is a mainstream candidate and you are not part of the mainstream if you express an unwillingness to play ball or show any great degree of independence. His support from Ted Kennedy, a consummate party insider, should make this obvious.

3. He has already managed to establish an "insider" base of lobbyist support in Washington to rival any other politician.

Quote
Yet it is also startling to see how quickly Obama’s senatorship has been woven into the web of institutionalized influence-trading that afflicts official Washington. He quickly established a political machine funded and run by a standard Beltway group of lobbyists, P.R. consultants, and hangers-on. For the staff post of policy director he hired Karen Kornbluh, a senior aide to Robert Rubin when the latter, as head of the Treasury Department under Bill Clinton, was a chief advocate for NAFTA and other free-trade policies that decimated the nation’s manufacturing sector (and the organized labor wing of the Democratic Party). Obama’s top contributors are corporate law and lobbying firms (Kirkland & Ellis and Skadden, Arps, where four attorneys are fund-raisers for Obama as well as donors), Wall Street financial houses (Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase), and big Chicago interests (Henry Crown and Company, an investment firm that has stakes in industries ranging from telecommunications to defense). Obama immediately established a “leadership PAC,” a vehicle through which a member of Congress can contribute to other politicians’ campaigns—and one that political reform groups generally view as a slush fund through which congressional leaders can evade campaign-finance rules while raising their own political profiles.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/11/0081275



4. Similarly, his claims of not accepting money from lobbyists are a bit thin in actual practice:

Quote
But behind Obama's campaign rhetoric about taking on special interests lies a more complicated truth. A Globe review of Obama's campaign finance records shows that he collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from lobbyists and PACs as a state legislator in Illinois, a US senator, and a presidential aspirant.

In Obama's eight years in the Illinois Senate, from 1996 to 2004, almost two-thirds of the money he raised for his campaigns -- $296,000 of $461,000 -- came from PACs, corporate contributions, or unions, according to Illinois Board of Elections records. He tapped financial services firms, real estate developers, healthcare providers, oil companies, and many other corporate interests, the records show.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/pacs_and_lobbyists_aided_obamas_rise/

 
5. He has also already managed to become involved in the whole "shady deals" thing for personal gain that is so common (and bipartisan, actually) in Illinois politics. Such as the Tony Rezko  shady real estate deal.

Obama talks a good game. He is attractive and articulate and has a good speech writer to take advantage of those skills. However, as an "agent of change" you likely have to look no further than Dick Durbin or Ted Kennedy for insight as to what change means. He will likely push a very progressive, but mainstream Democratic agenda. He will certainly work with the people he needs to to achieve this agenda and support his next election bid.

The only true outsiders, true agents for change, in this election are/were Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. You can tell the difference between insiders and outsiders by how they were supported by their own parties compared to the mainstream candidates.

Charon
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 09:20:03 AM by Charon »

Offline Hap

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3908
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2008, 10:44:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
There has simply been a shift to the left in America.  It always happens as population in cities grows and people become more dependent and..  less able to accept personal responsibility and.. it is a normal stage of govenment and it's growth and decay.

lazs


Lazs, what historical precedents come to your mind.  You maybe be entirely right.  Some of what you say from time I find my self on the same page with you.

On this, I'm hard-pressed to evidence your claim except from the last bit of American history itself, or other some other countries also.  Post WW2 I'm thinking.

Anyone have a decent summary of US tax policy since our inception?  Not a nut-job screed?

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2008, 02:29:44 PM »
Hap.. I would point to socialism as a system in the communist countries and in england..  england is decaying at a rapid rate.  

I would say that our economy is decaying due to socialism more than anything.  If you look at our spending you will see just how much goes for socialist programs.. are you saying that they are not contributing to our decay?

Do you believe that we can tax our selves into prosperity?   Osamabama does.

lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2008, 02:46:04 PM »
but hap..maybe we should get the ground rules straight and take things one at a time...

Do you believe that the country is more to the left now than when kennedy was elected?

lazs

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2008, 02:54:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
The only true outsiders, true agents for change, in this election are/were Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. You can tell the difference between insiders and outsiders by how they were supported by their own parties compared to the mainstream candidates.
LOL, if that's the best we can do for "outsiders" then lets hear it for the insiders.  The issue with these guys isn't that they aren't supported by their own parties, it's that they are nut jobs and the vast majority of Americans know it.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline TwentyFo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1006
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2008, 03:43:54 PM »
George W. Bush was the greatest president we've had in the last 7 years. What more can I say?
XO ***THE LYNCHMOB***

Offline texasmom

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6078
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2008, 03:48:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Because "change" and "hope" are both bad words and ridiculous sentiments. Obviously anyone who uses them is unrealistic. No ... wait .... that's not a given. It's just what some think is. :)


Actually ~ it is a given. "hope" is wishful thinking without any action behind it.  Hope is for the limp wristed big-mouths who don't intend on ever making the actual "change" part happen.

I don't see a problem with "change" though.  If things are good, it's a wasted effort... but if things are crappy, "change" is good. :)
<S> Easy8
<S> Mac

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2008, 04:10:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by texasmom
Actually ~ it is a given. "hope" is wishful thinking without any action behind it.  Hope is for the limp wristed big-mouths who don't intend on ever making the actual "change" part happen.
 


We live by admiration, hope and love. -- William Wordsworth

We judge of man's wisdom by his hope. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

The very least you can do in your life is to figure out what you hope for. And the most you can do is live inside that  hope. Not admire it from a distance but live right in it, under its roof. -- Barbara Kingsolver


Hope" is the thing with feathers-- That perches in the soul-- And sings the tune without the words-- And never stops--at all-- Emily Dickenson

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2008, 04:16:03 PM »
Hitler said he would change Germany, and he did.

Offline texasmom

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6078
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #117 on: February 08, 2008, 04:22:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
We live by admiration, hope and love. -- William Wordsworth

We judge of man's wisdom by his hope. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

The very least you can do in your life is to figure out what you hope for. And the most you can do is live inside that  hope. Not admire it from a distance but live right in it, under its roof. -- Barbara Kingsolver


Hope" is the thing with feathers-- That perches in the soul-- And sings the tune without the words-- And never stops--at all-- Emily Dickenson


*and there's a point somewhere around the corner?*
So lots of people think hope is a grand & noble thing ~ including famous poets. So what?  None of them gained sucess in attaining what they wanted by "hoping" for it... or waiting for it to be handed to them.  

Hope is for those who aren't willing to get up & get it themselves.
<S> Easy8
<S> Mac

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #118 on: February 08, 2008, 04:31:35 PM »
Hope is for those who aren't willing to get up & get it themselves. - Texasmom


I'll have to submit that one.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2008, 04:50:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
We live by admiration, hope and love. -- William Wordsworth

We judge of man's wisdom by his hope. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

The very least you can do in your life is to figure out what you hope for. And the most you can do is live inside that  hope. Not admire it from a distance but live right in it, under its roof. -- Barbara Kingsolver


Hope" is the thing with feathers-- That perches in the soul-- And sings the tune without the words-- And never stops--at all-- Emily Dickenson

Yep, and hope is supposed to lead to pragmatic solutions, not more abstract hope with no concrete solutions.  Otherwise we could just elect Rich Simmons.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you