Author Topic: Nothing to see here, move along  (Read 5331 times)

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2008, 04:37:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WWhiskey
Well, if you say so cause, wikipedia is the only real source of info on a man that has been dead now for over forty years, and it was wrote when? by whom?
a rewrite of history usually happens after the fact in this case i guess the last 8 years or so.
You should try to get your info from an encyclopedia instead , maybe one that was printed anywhere from say 1964 to 1985. by the way he was going to help the economy  and fund his programs with tax cuts, to raise revenue! try to find a dem today that can run on that platform and see what you come up with!


You see ... that's how presumption works. You presume the only source I've read regarding JFK is Wiki because it happens to be the most convenient to present to you online at a moment's notice. Poor presumption. I'm sorry you're prone to such. You also recommend an encyclopedia as if I've never seen one or have no access to such and that I didn't grow up with the 1965 edition of WB and read it like most kids do comics. Is that supposedly the source you're using to make claim about Kennedy being the equivilent to a modern day neocon? What brand? Whiskey's encyclopedia of political persuasion?

Good luck with that. :aok

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2008, 04:49:25 PM »
By the standards of the 1960s, Kennedy was a "liberal."  Today, he would be considered to be a middle-of-the-roader.  While it is true that he favored the creation of programs that expanded the government's role in civil rights and social welfare, he most certainly did not favor making vast numbers of citizens dependent on government largesse, which the modern democratic party has embraced with both hands.   If he did favor that, why in Heaven's Name did he make this famous statement during his Inaugural Address..."Ask Not what your country can do for you..."?

Moreover, Kennedy was a veteran, and had the stones to stand up to Khruschev during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I shudder to think what might have happened if one of this year's current non-military background democratic candidates had occupied the White House during that crisis.

 Hillary and her like came from a political movement within my own generation that not only opposed the Vietnam War, but expressed disdain for the military in all of its permutations.  The draconian military cutbacks during the 1970s were something that she heartily agreed with.  If, as she now says, she respects our servicemen and our modern military it is only because her opinions have gone through a sea-change in the intervening years.

If elected, she will revert to her old ways, and favor drastic cutbacks in the military, and withdrdaw our forces from Iraq regardless of any negative consequences....and there will be consequences.

Because of these considerations, I think that she and Obama bear little resemblance to JFK, in their political beliefs or national vision.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 04:51:49 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2008, 04:57:54 PM »
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Originally posted by john9001
JFK's high points, messed up the bay of pigs which led to the cuban missile crisis which almost started WW3,  


I think you left out a part concerning the Cuban missile crisis...........you know , the outcome where he put the Ruskies on their friggin knees sucking wind.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2008, 05:03:27 PM »
if JFK and McNamara had not screwed up the bay of pigs there would not have been missiles in Cuba to start with, Castro was so afraid of another invasion he asked Russia for the missiles for defense. I did not read this in a history book , i lived it.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2008, 05:05:16 PM »
Ya'll would have quite the daisy chain going here if Arlo hadn't horned in.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2008, 05:06:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
if JFK and McNamara had not screwed up the bay of pigs there would not have been missiles in Cuba to start with, Castro was so afraid of another invasion he asked Russia for the missiles for defense. I did not read this in a history book , i lived it.


The Cuban missile crisis was the very best thing that could have happened at the time. It gave the chance to put the Ruskies on their knees where they belonged.....and still do.
I lived it also, along a great many others here.
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Offline RedTop

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Re: OMG I just saw an obama commercial...
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2008, 05:11:08 PM »
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Originally posted by JB73
do people REALLY buy that ****?


Yep
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Offline Fulmar

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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2008, 05:44:07 PM »
So if he gets elected...how do we judge that he saved the planet by the end of his term?
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2008, 06:14:20 PM »
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Originally posted by Shuckins
By the standards of the 1960s, Kennedy was a "liberal."  Today, he would be considered to be a middle-of-the-roader.


Well there you go. A less extreme and a more realistic claim. S'all I was sayin'.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins

Because of these considerations (Obama's lack of veteran status), I think that [Obama] bear(s) little resemblance to JFK, in [his] political belief or national vision.


I'm not seeing Obama's lack of service as a difference in political belief or national vision. I'm seeing it as a lack of experience for practical assessment regarding the use of military force in foreign policy. Something that can easily be made up for through cabinet and pentagon guidance if ... 1: He chooses his cabinet wisely and .... 2: He's not a "predestined decider" on all facets of policy.

You and I have room for reasonable discussion on this, though. :)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 06:19:02 PM by Arlo »

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2008, 06:16:10 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Ya'll would have quite the daisy chain going here if Arlo hadn't horned in.


What can I say? Was feelin' jealous and lonely.

;)

(And I can't seem to resist breaking up torch-n-pitchfork/ tar-n-feathers rallies) :D

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2008, 06:17:39 PM »
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Originally posted by Fulmar
So if he gets elected...how do we judge that he saved the planet by the end of his term?


Well .... how bout this? He'll be judged on how hard he worked to fix the mess the current potus stuck him/us/the planet with. :D

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2008, 06:41:51 PM »
Well Arlo, it's true that the right choices for Secretary of State and other key cabinet posts can compensate, at least to some degree, for lack of military experience.  That's why I thought the choice of Colin Powell by Bush was such a great move....and why I was sorry to see him go.

However, having said that, the President is, ultimately, the one who calls the shots....and I just do not think that Obama or Hillary fully understand the military or its proper usage.  For example, consider the fumble-fingered, stumble-bum way Bill used it while he was in office....in Somalia and in the bombing of the pharmaceutical plant.  Those embarassing fiascoes overshadow the one real successful use of military force by Clinton during his administration....the intervention in Bosnia.  The egg we got on our faces in the aforementioned snafus emboldened our enemies in the Middle East, and that threat matured due, at least in part, to a lackadaisical attitude in the oval office toward that threat.

Every time our nation has stuck its head in the sand while threats arose abroad we have paid a heavy price for it.  Yet, our citizens of an isolationist bent refuse to learn from that.  They prefer to have a government that slashes the military budget and tucks them into bed at night, and leaves the nation's security to happenstance.  

A lot of the support for Obama is coming from this crowd.  They are tired of the drum-beating and war talk....and want to be put back to sleep again....and that is exactly what he and Hillary will do if either is elected.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2008, 07:21:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Well .... how bout this? He'll be judged on how hard he worked to fix the mess the current potus stuck him/us/the planet with. :D


Yes, with "change" and "hope". :rolleyes:
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Offline TwentyFo

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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2008, 07:57:25 PM »
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well, that's an opinion, I'm sure. I might suggest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy



Please if you are trying to prove a point, NEVER quote wikipedia. If you want to know how wiki works, just go to their website.

Side Note:
A year ago I took an Aviation Writing class. One of the assignments we had was to write/add to a Wikipedia article. One of the students in my class made up a completely fictional page about a famous Canadian Aviator. The name, the accomplishments were all made up. I wish I had the name of the fictional aviator to see if he is still on there. It's a great read, and is very believable.

XO ***THE LYNCHMOB***

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2008, 08:07:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Well Arlo, it's true that the right choices for Secretary of State and other key cabinet posts can compensate, at least to some degree, for lack of military experience.  That's why I thought the choice of Colin Powell by Bush was such a great move....and why I was sorry to see him go.

However, having said that, the President is, ultimately, the one who calls the shots....and I just do not think that Obama or Hillary fully understand the military or its proper usage.  For example, consider the fumble-fingered, stumble-bum way Bill used it while he was in office....in Somalia and in the bombing of the pharmaceutical plant.  Those embarassing fiascoes overshadow the one real successful use of military force by Clinton during his administration....the intervention in Bosnia.  The egg we got on our faces in the aforementioned snafus emboldened our enemies in the Middle East, and that threat matured due, at least in part, to a lackadaisical attitude in the oval office toward that threat.

Every time our nation has stuck its head in the sand while threats arose abroad we have paid a heavy price for it.  Yet, our citizens of an isolationist bent refuse to learn from that.  They prefer to have a government that slashes the military budget and tucks them into bed at night, and leaves the nation's security to happenstance.  

A lot of the support for Obama is coming from this crowd.  They are tired of the drum-beating and war talk....and want to be put back to sleep again....and that is exactly what he and Hillary will do if either is elected.


Wreckless use of military force abroad, even (perhaps especially) when the adminstration is steadfastly committed to doing so (without taking heed the neccessity of wise planning prior and recognition of failed policy during) is just as bad, if not worse. Both Vietnam and Iraq are testament.

However .... didn't you see Obama's mention of the worsening atmosphere in Pakistan needing intervention (even though he also mentioned how the current situation in Iraq presents impediment in doing so as effectively as we once could have)? That doesn't sound like sleep, isolationship or anything of the kind. Obama is anti-sand .... in so much as the "hundred years war" plan McCain seems intent on for the sake of "national security and prestige" .... Republican style (wish the GOP would unhijack itself from extremism).