Author Topic: P-39 YAHOooo  (Read 2584 times)

Offline -aper-

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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2008, 02:24:50 AM »
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But really. You should read a bit how the Luftwarre and especially RLM verified the claims and credited the pilots. Usually claims took several months research and verification before official victory was awarded the pilot.


On the 4th of July 1943 seven soviet planes (two Il-2 from 46 SHAP,  two Hampden and three DB-3F from 9 gv MTAP) tried to attack german CV in Kirkines area and were intercepted by german fighters from  7./JG 5
Only two badly damaged DB-3F managed to return back from their mission, and the other FIVE soviet planes were shot down.
German pilots from 7./JG 5 claimed and were credited with SIXTEEN victories for this fight:

Lt. Weissenberger - 7
Ofw. Beulich - 4
Uffz. Beth - 2
Ofw. Dorr - 1
Fw. Drobler - 1
Lt. Eichhorn - 1

That's the example how "accurate" the scores of the LW pilots are.

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2008, 05:17:51 AM »
250+ kills don't mean jack to 35 because one nation only counted fighters/bombers, and not everything with wings like others did.

"Even tho score counting changed later in war for some of those nations."

MY POINT: Each nation counted scores and did things diffrently, total number's killed, is half the story.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 05:23:40 AM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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Offline angelsandair

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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2008, 09:08:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Krusty
Dude... SERIOUSLY... reply ONCE to all the points you want to cover, don't reply over and over and OVER and over and over and over....


lol i would read em then all of a sudden see another one that i wanted to reply to...........:rofl
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Gowan

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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2008, 09:16:18 PM »
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO.  he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2008, 10:20:18 PM »
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Originally posted by Gowan
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO.  he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures

You just keep thinking that.

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Offline Motherland

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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2008, 07:51:08 AM »
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
250+ kills don't mean jack to 35 because one nation only counted fighters/bombers, and not everything with wings like others did.

"Even tho score counting changed later in war for some of those nations."

MY POINT: Each nation counted scores and did things diffrently, total number's killed, is half the story.

I can post a list of Hartmann's kills if you would like. All Airacobra's, Lavochkins, Yakovlevs, and Ilyushins. Im sure there was certain cheating on all sides, but when you have 9x the kill score of the top ace of the US, I dont think theres much argument.
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Originally posted by Gowan
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO.  he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures

He WAS shot down by P51's over Romania IIRC. He had to ditch 14 times total.

BTW... As far as vulching goes... I dont know what you guys think the Germans were vulching. Incase you werent aware, after 1943, When Hartmann arrived on the front, Germany was on the defensive, and Im pretty sure that they were more worried about killing the hordes of Soviets than score padding. Its not like a 109 would make it that far anyway :rofl (short legs... its a joke)
(BTW, Barkhorn, with 301, didnt score a kill during Barbarossa, as he was a new pilot at the time.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 07:59:30 AM by Motherland »

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2008, 11:28:40 AM »
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Originally posted by Krusty
I *think* he switched from the USAAC to the USN


AFAIK he was in neither, unless you equate Navy=USMC and AVG=USAAF, which is incorrect in both cases.

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2008, 11:57:38 AM »
If I recall, the marines flew off of navy ships.

But yes, that's what I was equating them to.

Offline angelsandair

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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2008, 10:26:08 PM »
motherland, you know the #1 and #2 allied aces were russians, of course the germans beat the us aces by like 9x cuz they werent really up in the top 2. Kozhedub (#1 allied ace) had 62 soviet confirmed kills but probably had about 100 (soviet kill confirmation) and the #2 allied ace was russian and he had 59 soviet confirmed kills but probably about 80 from what his wingmen said.
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline FrodeMk3

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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2008, 01:02:27 AM »
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Originally posted by Krusty
If I recall, the marines flew off of navy ships.

But yes, that's what I was equating them to.


http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_boyington.html

Krusty, I would have thought you knew that Gregory Boyington was a Marine, both before and after his stint with the AVG. And He never flew from a carrier.

Offline Squire

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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2008, 03:57:36 AM »
G. Boyington had 6 kills with the AVG and 22 with the USMC. His WW2 air to air tally was 28 confirmed and 4 probables with the AVG/USMC.

Some Marine squadrons flew off Navy ships, especially 1944-45 in ground support and night fighter roles, VMF-214 did not during his tour in the Solomons.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2008, 07:27:20 AM »
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Originally posted by Gowan
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO.  he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures


Hartmann was shotdown on more then one occasion and ditched damaged planes numerous times. I'm not going to dig thru all of them but Aug 12, 1943 Hartmann led 9 109's in attacks on IL-2s around kursk and got 2 before being hit. He flew west as far as he could before bellying the plane in and was captured by russians (who happened to be using a captured german truck)...he faked stomach pains and bolted when he got the chance...

As for being the best, thats a tough question...certainly he got the most kills, but that doesnt make him the best....just one of the best.

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Offline Angus

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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2008, 07:27:50 AM »
Hartmann had the highest score. Yes. 352?
He had the USSR to deal with mostly. And for a lot of time inferior aircraft with inferior tactics. He did get shot down, and actually had both crashed an aircraft as well as chased his own wingman before he set the beads on a russian fighter.
Barkhorn was another, a crack ace. 302 kills?
Then Rall, 275. He got shot down 8 times. However, he bagged an aircraft in his first operational sortie and went on ops on many theaters, - France, BoB (which he considered very dangerous air-to-air), Crete, Romania, USSR ,then the western front again (Which he considered to be a very deadly environment). Considered the LW's best shot together with Marseille. Rall poo's on USSR claims by the way. (When the commisar demands results he will get results. On paper if necessary :D).
One of my favourite ace is "Pat" Pattle, since he had hard dealings and bagged 15 aircraft in a bipe. And one of the best of all was perhap's the S-African "Sailor" Malan, who reduced his score by sending LW bombers home alive but bleeding, - as a warning.
Malan also clobbered one of the German Aces, Werner Mölders (The top LW gun at the time) in a dogfight where Mölders started off with the advantage. Malan's excentrism with "bleeding enemies" perhaps saved Mölders?
AFAIK the LW claims were however quite authentic. Not in the BoB (But neither were the RAF's), but after. I have only found a couple of incidents (I scanned 1942, ETO) where the LW claimed above the RAF's losses, but not much. However in the Med, Russia and generally in big action, claims can get tricky to confirm. Isn't Marseille's day with 17 kills still disputed?
(AFAIK JUST his claim exceeds RAF and SAAF losses, let alone the AC types claimed)

that's....war....
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Offline Grendel

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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2008, 11:02:22 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus

However in the Med, Russia and generally in big action, claims can get tricky to confirm. Isn't Marseille's day with 17 kills still disputed?
(AFAIK JUST his claim exceeds RAF and SAAF losses, let alone the AC types claimed)


Actually not. Allies lost much more planes in that area on that day. The original research that disputed his achievement failed to account all units that operated in that area. Combined, their losses were much more than Marseille's claims for 17 victories.

Offline Motherland

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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2008, 02:14:10 PM »
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Originally posted by angelsandair
motherland, you know the #1 and #2 allied aces were russians, of course the germans beat the us aces by like 9x cuz they werent really up in the top 2. Kozhedub (#1 allied ace) had 62 soviet confirmed kills but probably had about 100 (soviet kill confirmation) and the #2 allied ace was russian and he had 59 soviet confirmed kills but probably about 80 from what his wingmen said.

I know. But the Russian scores were being disputed in this thread earlier so I didnt use them as an example (and I dont know the top Brit scorers either... who cares? He was probably a Spit dweeb anyway :rofl  (just kidding...)
Still, with Pokryshkins 'possible' 100 kills, thats still less than a third of Hartmann's.