Author Topic: Thoughts on HQ bomber raids (Read 1973 times)

AquaShrimp · « **on:** February 10, 2008, 01:12:40 AM »

I just flew a HQ bomber raid that was put together by AATalen. It was a lot of fun, and very well organized. He had the bombers (B-17s) in two different flights, staggered in a realistic combat box formation. He also had two types of escort fighters, P-51s and P-47Ns. The P-47Ns provided top cover (they were at 35k), while the P-51s stayed with the bombers at 32k. Escorts and bombers each had their own radio frequency.

While we (the escorts) easily dispatched any prop planes that came close to us, Me163s demolished the bomber flight on the bomb-run. A few 163s were damaged and destroyed, but for the most part the escorts couldn't even touch them. The HQ was damaged, but not destroyed.

Heres my thoughts:

-Each bomber needs 1 human gunner. 163 attacks come when the bombers near the HQ.

-The only effective countermeasure for 163s is human gunners on bombers, or destroying the fuel of the 163 base in advance.

-The P-47N is a much better extremely high altitude (30K+) escort than the P-51D is.

-Bombing from above 30k is very difficult for even the best pilots.

Tumor · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2008, 02:44:27 AM »

....or possibly make good use of the perk system and do to 163s what should be done.

Roidrage · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2008, 02:48:45 AM »

It was a fun raid, I ended up heading to a 163 base and killed a 262 at the end. But the sheer number of 163s that attacked us was insane. I don't know how many people were actually flying them, but I saw at least 10 different 163s at any time. My guess would of been 20-30 in total. No escort can even get a shot at one unless the 163 makes a mistake. I agree with Aquashrimp that the only counter is to have gunners in each bomber.

BaDkaRmA158Th · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2008, 05:54:19 AM »

No, the counter is to send in a few fighers to hit the fuel before* you get into range to be intercepted.

Failure to do so will always resault in a sea of 163's..lets face it, they dont get flown alot so when intell comes in about a massive fleet of targets, well..you know how things go.

Even if they know your coming, if they have no fuel, they cannot intercept.

MjTalon · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2008, 09:08:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
No, the counter is to send in a few fighers to hit the fuel before* you get into range to be intercepted.

Failure to do so will always resault in a sea of 163's..lets face it, they dont get flown alot so when intell comes in about a massive fleet of targets, well..you know how things go.

Even if they know your coming, if they have no fuel, they cannot intercept.

Think i'll Add that too my next raid.

The Fugitive · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2008, 09:23:48 AM »

hitting fuel isn't going to help, as you can't get it down enough to stop them from upping. However, if you break off a wing of your escorts and have them dive out in advance of your raid, they can cap the field that the 163 up from and thin there numbers greatly before they get up there speed.

rabbidrabbit · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2008, 10:15:34 AM »

Isn't fighting the fight the point of a raid? How boring is it to to not only climb for 40 mins... run another 40 mins and you don't want any opposition? Why not just fly offline and call it a day?

Lusche · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2008, 10:27:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Isn't fighting the fight the point of a raid? How boring is it to to not only climb for 40 mins... run another 40 mins and you don't want any opposition? Why not just fly offline and call it a day?

I sorta can udnerstand the HQ raiders.

Fighting is one thing, but facing clouds of 163s is usually just a slaughter.
If you could prevent 163 from effectively participating, you wouldn't stop the fight at all. There are still a lot of other fighters that can & will engage you.

uptown · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2008, 10:29:26 AM »

Bombing mission to 163 base right before HQ raid. Bomber escorts divert to 163 base after hangers pop. It's all in the planning gents.

hubsonfire · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:06:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Isn't fighting the fight the point of a raid? How boring is it to to not only climb for 40 mins... run another 40 mins and you don't want any opposition? Why not just fly offline and call it a day?

QFT.

Overlag · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:17:17 AM »

i kinda think its silly that these AA HQ raides are done at 30K + when B17s never used to do that... also at full throttle too...

but then it does kinda make sense when you get to the HQ and get ruined.

i created a HQ thread in the Wishlists forums, i wish it would go back to the old ways of a % of damage kills dot dar, and only full 100% damage to the whole city kills the HQ. that way it would be more effective/realistic compaired to bombing 1 big building.

163s are a pain, but as most others said, get a small wing of p47D40s or something to go in, kill the fuel/ack (hell even the FH's if your fast enough) and cap the field.

to those saying whats the point of flying online if you dont want the fight...

they do want the fight... but 163s are horrific and generally these days are the only option a country uses on defending there HQ. very few will up 262s/152s or whatever, they just choose the easy option.

I been on the recieving end of a AAolds/Talen HQ raid, and its quality, i got 4 kills in a Ta152 before i rammed a 1 wing'ed B17, 3 kills in a 262 before i blew up, and 4 in a 163 which again i rammed someone with lol

i want to be on for the next one so i can switch countries and be a part of it (as long as they not hitting knits lol).

DoNKeY · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:22:13 AM »

Yeah seems like it would really suck to fly for a long time and then have someone up for 3 minutes and shoot you down.

donkey

PS Talen how often do you do you high alt HQ runs? I want to try flying a 38 escort that high (after I drop my payload of course:D ).

Overlag · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:25:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoNKeY
Yeah seems like it would really suck to fly for a long time and then have someone up for 3 minutes and shoot you down.

donkey

PS Talen how often do you do you high alt HQ runs? I want to try flying a 38 escort that high (after I drop my payload of course:D ).

there u go AA's, get these B38s (sorry P38s) to bomb the 163 base first....

KayBayRay · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:45:32 AM »

I agree with those thinking that the ability for the 163's to launch should be dealt with as part of the overall mission strategy.

I have flown many well organized missions like this to many targets and I have found that dealing with even a couple 262's or 163's is a challenge. If you are faced with 5 or more I think that represents an extreme challenge. As much fun as that may be the mission planner may want to consider tactics to eleminate that to allow misson success.

A few things could be done for this if that is the path chosen. Here are some thoughts about that.

As part of the overall raid a separate force of either fighters or medium bombers could be sent to shut down launch hangers, cap and suppress their return.

Yes you could also man the guns on the bombers but I have found that it is difficult to get more than 15-20 pilots just to fill out the main strike force. This represents a problem to the possible tactic stated above.

You need 9 or more for the main bomber force and 6 or more for the main fighter escort. This means you need another 6 or more to deal with the launch capabilities of enemy jets and rockets.

So IMHO numbers of those participating in the overall mission is the limiting factor. I have found this to be the norm in missions like this. Yes we can all recall the mission where there were 45+ pilots but how often have any of you particpated in one of these? Typically I have seen under 20 unless it was communicated days or weeks in advance via message boards or similar.

Never having flown a 262 or a 163 due to lack of fighter perk points I dont know which bases can launch both. I do know that those capable of launching 163's are extremely limited. If I am correct I believe only the larger bases can launch either. Since I dont recall a map where large bases are side by side I believe this may be a viable tactic provided you have the numbers of pilots to employ it.

If successful this may force enemy defenders to launch from more distant bases to climb to intercept altitudes and vector their defese from distance. I believe that mission altitudes should be extreme for success. As mentioned your bomb wing altitude was 30k+. I think this is a must if you want to actually hit the target. The HQ building is very small from 30k and requires a large amount of direct hits to destroy. IIRC 37k lbs of bombs as direct hits to destroy??? B-17's only carry 6 1000 lbs bombs and in a Combat Box formation you will be hard pressed to hit a building <100 feet wide with the proper ord requirement for destruction.

IMHO for proper accuracy the bomb groups must be unhampered by fighter interception during the bomb run. I am sure that there are other ways to deal with this that may be mentioned on this thread. Just some thoughts I had about it. Overall the limiting factor will be volume of pilot participation.

Later,
KayBay

Lusche · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:49:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by KayBayRay

Never having flown a 262 or a 163 due to lack of fighter perk points I dont know which bases can launch both. I do know that those capable of launching 163's are extremely limited. If I am correct I believe only the larger bases can launch either. Since I dont recall a map where large bases are side by side I believe this may be a viable tactic provided you have the numbers of pilots to employ it.

262's can be upped from any airfield.
There is always only a single base close to HQ on which 163's are enabled. Actually there is even a map which hasn't any 163's enabled at all