another campus shooting this week?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Elfie
Of course you can't give any credit to armed personnel having any form of detterence. /yawn

And exactly what kind of deterrence did armed personell have before and during 9/11?

[Elfie]

One time in all the history of hijackings have the passengers fought back......one time. The only reason the passengers knew what was going to happen was they talked to people on the ground via cell phones. Simple enough for hijackers to get around that, take away all the cell phones in any future hijackings.

One time is a deterrent for the future when its so easy to plan around? I think not.

You can argue with yourself now. I'm done with this thread.

[trax1]

Originally posted by Elfie
One time in all the history of hijackings have the passengers fought back......one time. The only reason the passengers knew what was going to happen was they talked to people on the ground via cell phones. Simple enough for hijackers to get around that, take away all the cell phones in any future hijackings.

One time is a deterrent for the future when its so easy to plan around? I think not.

You can argue with yourself now. I'm done with this thread.

Wow, are you serious?  So if you were on an airplane that got hijacked today you would just sit back and do nothing?  Well then I think you'd be alone in that respect.  If anyone tried hijacking an airplane now after 9/11 no one on that plane would just sit there and be like "well we'll just see how this plays out", they would all have what happen on 9/11 in there minds and do everything they could to get control of that plane back.  I gotta say I think your not really thinking this through to clearly.

Pre 9/11 yeah I'd say your right, but ever since that day people look at a hijacked airplane in a different light.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Elfie
One time in all the history of hijackings have the passengers fought back......one time. The only reason the passengers knew what was going to happen was they talked to people on the ground via cell phones. Simple enough for hijackers to get around that, take away all the cell phones in any future hijackings.

One time is a deterrent for the future when its so easy to plan around? I think not.

You can argue with yourself now. I'm done with this thread.

Make that two times.
Lets not forget the shoe bomber.

While technically not a hijacking. It was the passengers who were alert enough to stop a tragedy.
Not armed personel

[trax1]

Like I said, he's just not thinking it through clearly.  He has no argument to defend his statement about it, and thats why he's said he's done with the thread.

Anyone who thinks that any terrorist could actually get away with trying to hijack and American airliner just aren't being realistic about it, nobody would sit by and do nothing to try and stop it in a post 9/11 world.  The rules have change when it comes to hijackings now and the old sitting still and waiting out the hijacking to end just don't apply anymore.  Before your odds of survival were good if you just waited for it to end, now no one would risk waiting it out on the chance they would use it as a missile again.

[-tronski-]

In the only school shooting in recent history (2002) a student walked into a Monash University with 5 legally owned handguns - shooting 2 dead, wounding 5 more and was tackled to the ground by the wounded Lecturer  (hit in the shoulder and knee) and 2 other students when he started to swap weapons

 Tronsky

[Thruster]

For those that have done any research on the subject.....

I don't know the answer but I think it's just sitting there waiting for the right person to divine.  

Why are there so many more of these incidents in the U.S.?

[trax1]

Originally posted by Thruster
For those that have done any research on the subject.....

I don't know the answer but I think it's just sitting there waiting for the right person to divine.  

Why are there so many more of these incidents in the U.S.?

I'm sure it's due to a couple of factors, theres no 1 thing that you can point to and say that it.

Like one factor would be the easy access to hand guns in our country, now it's not that I'm saying we need to ban hand guns here or anything like that, or that we need tighter gun laws either, thats not gonna fix the problem, I love hand guns, and when they are properly handled and safely stored away in a gun safe they are safe from anything bad happening with them., as they say "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

Another factor here is probably how mean kids here can be towards one another, and those kids that get picked on see that in the media these kids that got picked on in other schools took things into their own hands and got revenge on their tormentors, so they get the idea to do it themselves.

I'm sure there are other factors to it aswell as the ones I've stated here.

[moot]

A very good teacher used to say when speaking about guns in the US: "The history of the USA has always been bloody", and "There's a bit of Romans in all of us ", meaning Americans.

[lazs2]

wow trax that ability to blind yourself is strong in you.

skyjacking.. only the first couple were for monetary gain.. the rest were for percieved slights or political reasons.   pretty much...  they were carried out by nutjobs who wanted the publicity.  sound familiar?

sky marshal program... came in to being and skyjacking stopped.   so well in fact that... the ended it.

ended program... skyjacking starts again.. this time they just increase security at airports and more searches and more nazi like programs.   skyjacking attempts continue.. but.. everyone suffers.. most.. like myself.. avoid flying because of the stench of totalitarianism.

sky marshal program starts again...  attempts end.   but.. we still have searches and shoeless idiots wandering around airports an hour too early and grandmas being patted down in front of the rest of the "happy travelers"

Now.. we could do away with all the nazi crap.. the sky marshal and armed pilot/ heavy security pilot cabin doors is enough.

trax..  I am glad that the facts don't support your "feelings"..  I think that you should be too if you just thought about it.

A pleasant school or airport or public place with no gestapo and a maybe a few CCW holders in the crowd is far preferable to the police state it would take to equal the amount of security so few provide.

lazs

[trax1]

Originally posted by lazs2
wow trax that ability to blind yourself is strong in you.

skyjacking.. only the first couple were for monetary gain.. the rest were for percieved slights or political reasons.   pretty much...  they were carried out by nutjobs who wanted the publicity.  sound familiar?

sky marshal program... came in to being and skyjacking stopped.   so well in fact that... the ended it.

ended program... skyjacking starts again.. this time they just increase security at airports and more searches and more nazi like programs.   skyjacking attempts continue.. but.. everyone suffers.. most.. like myself.. avoid flying because of the stench of totalitarianism.

sky marshal program starts again...  attempts end.   but.. we still have searches and shoeless idiots wandering around airports an hour too early and grandmas being patted down in front of the rest of the "happy travelers"

Now.. we could do away with all the nazi crap.. the sky marshal and armed pilot/ heavy security pilot cabin doors is enough.

trax..  I am glad that the facts don't support your "feelings"..  I think that you should be too if you just thought about it.

A pleasant school or airport or public place with no gestapo and a maybe a few CCW holders in the crowd is far preferable to the police state it would take to equal the amount of security so few provide.

lazs

  What I said is that sky marshals aren't whats stopping planes from being hijack nowadays, never once said anything about it stopping them pre 9/11.  Since 9/11 you will never see someone successfully hijack another American airplane because the people on the plane would never just sit by and watch it happen, and I think you can't deny that, I know that if you were on a plane that was hijacked you'd be right there with me and the other passengers coming up with someway to rush the terrorist and retake the plane.  

And as far as pre 9/11 the majority of people who hijacked airplanes were terrorist who were doing it for political reasons like getting fellow freedom fighters(as they would refer to themselves) freed from jails, or getting other political things they wanted.  The other kind was the hijacker doing it for a monetary gain(like D.B Copper).  Now as far as the freedom fighters(aka terrorist) go they were willing to die for whatever they were trying to accomplish, so the though of a sky marshal maybe being onboard is no detourant to them.  Now the guy doing it for a monetary gain he was probably detoured from attempting to skyjack a plane by the sky marshal.  Now your original argument was comparing having sky marshals to having CCW's in classrooms, which as I stated isn't a good comparison because your school shooter isn't committing his crime for a monetary gain, he's doing it for reasons he's willing to die to carry out, so as with the terrorist dying isn't much of a detourant to them.

[lazs2]

trax trax trax... listen to yourself man!

of course the skyjackers were political nutjobs who wanted the media attention.. they were willing to die to get it.

of course the increased security at airports did nothing... or very little..  the skyjacking attempts stopped when they put guns on the planes.. the sky marshal program and the pilots.

You could cut airport security in half.. to a reasonable and unobtrusive level and just allow CCW and cops to carry concealed (after a course in aircraft shooting and the proper tools) or.. simply fund the skymarshal program fully and call it a day.

same will work for schools.. nothing else seems to be working..  No CCW people are causing problems.. so far.. civilians with guns have only helped the situations..

That is what is so backward about "gun free zones".. it doesn't work and it prevents a demostrably workable solution from happening.

Just as the anti gun nuts fought CCW with "feeling" of horror stories of fender benders turning into OK corral shootouts...  that kind of ignorance and arrogance.. fortunately.. did not prevail.. this current anti gun sillieness needs to go the same way.. to be drug out into the same light.

I feel that your attitude is getting children killed.   Plain and simple.  I think you do it out of ignorance but I am beggining to think that you have some agenda that trancends your ability to reason.. that is the only thing I can imagine at this point.

Prove me wrong tho.. show me how the sky marshal program has not worked.. show me how CCW has not worked.  every day... a bigger percent of the population is getting their permit.   It is solving more problems than it causes..  show me otherwise.

give me data that would support CCW holders being more of a danger than a help in schools... not arming 12 year olds.. but allowing CCW in schools.

I sure as hell want my grand daughter to be at a school where there are responsible and moral adults with firearms who will risk their life and step up to the plate to defend her...  I hope that if they or theirs are in a situation I can help them.

lazs

[trax1]

I have no agenda, I'm no law maker, whatever I think or feel will make no impact on the laws this country makes.  I could think putting evil purple monkeys into classrooms and it wouldn't effect any laws.

As for sky marshals like I said they have no effect on hijackers now in a post 9/11 America, the purpose they serve now is the peace of mind to the people flying in the planes, it makes people flying in the planes in a post 9/11 America feel safer knowing that there are undercover officers on planes with guns.  Honestly do you think that sky marshals are whats preventing Al Qaeda' & other terrorist from trying to hijack another U.S airliner?  I know I don't think thats what it is, IMO it's the increased security now to get on a plane, now-a-days you can't even get a finger nail clipper onto a plane.  The other thing preventing Al Qaeda' & other terrorist as I've already stated, the people on board that plane would never allow it to happen, they would rush the hijackers and stop them.

As I've said, yes before 9/11 sky marshals probably did have an effect on the minds of potential hijackers, but not anymore, now there are other things preventing them from trying it.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by trax1
I have no agenda, I'm no law maker, whatever I think or feel will make no impact on the laws this country makes.  I could think putting evil purple monkeys into classrooms and it wouldn't effect any laws.

As for sky marshals like I said they have no effect on hijackers now in a post 9/11 America, the purpose they serve now is the peace of mind to the people flying in the planes, it makes people flying in the planes in a post 9/11 America feel safer knowing that there are undercover officers on planes with guns.  Honestly do you think that sky marshals are whats preventing Al Qaeda' & other terrorist from trying to hijack another U.S airliner?  I know I don't think thats what it is, IMO it's the increased security now to get on a plane, now-a-days you can't even get a finger nail clipper onto a plane.  The other thing preventing Al Qaeda' & other terrorist as I've already stated, the people on board that plane would never allow it to happen, they would rush the hijackers and stop them.

As I've said, yes before 9/11 sky marshals probably did have an effect on the minds of potential hijackers, but not anymore, now there are other things preventing them from trying it.

Are you serious?  Any news organization that's having a slow day will get nail clippers, scissors or even knives on a plane just for ****s and giggles.  Just to show us how easy it is.

[Trell]

I like the ccw program and disagree with banning guns in school,  But pointing to sky marshals for the reasons people quit taking planes hostage is silly.


No one stopped stopped hijackings because it was in the best interest of the people onboard not to.  
The government for years pounded it into people’s heads that during hostage situations to do nothing.

9/11 Stopped that,  not ccws sky marshals or anything else.  
The proof is with United Airlines Flight 93  once they knew that it was not a hostage situation but a suicide bombing they took actions.
No one will ever take a plane in flight hostage again.
If the people in the planes knew that earlier none of that would have happened.

Look at the shoe bomber,  He was not stopped by sky marshals or people with guns,  He got his bellybutton kicked the old fashioned way.